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Old Tue Jan 18, 2005, 01:09pm
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I want to make certain my girls are not called for an intentional foul on a break away lay-up. More often than not though, we have a bad habit of fouling the shooter while in the act of a lay-up very passively and the shot goes in. I've talked to them about how we cannot "give" the other team two points and we need to make certain they don't get a shot off. I've shown them and we practice how to get back and assume legal guarding position in an attempt to take a charge. There are those times though where we just cannot beat them to the hoop. I have stressed the importance of going for the ball and if the foul happens, it is better than a free throw AND the lay-up. I just don't want the shot getting off. Anyway, I want to be certain that what I am asking them to do is never looked at by you as an intentional foul. Am I correct in what I have instructed my team to do?
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Old Tue Jan 18, 2005, 01:17pm
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I'd be careful with this, coach. Sometimes, if they've been beat that badly, they're better off letting the shot get off.
That said, if you tell them to get the ball and that a foul is okay in this case, they're less likely to get an intentional foul called if they're trying to get the ball as opposed to simply trying to prevent the shot from going up.
The way you worded it, it almost looks like a "text-book" definition of an intentional foul.
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Old Tue Jan 18, 2005, 01:24pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by coachgrd
I want to make certain my girls are not called for an intentional foul on a break away lay-up. More often than not though, we have a bad habit of fouling the shooter while in the act of a lay-up very passively and the shot goes in. I've talked to them about how we cannot "give" the other team two points and we need to make certain they don't get a shot off. I've shown them and we practice how to get back and assume legal guarding position in an attempt to take a charge. There are those times though where we just cannot beat them to the hoop. I have stressed the importance of going for the ball and if the foul happens, it is better than a free throw AND the lay-up. I just don't want the shot getting off. Anyway, I want to be certain that what I am asking them to do is never looked at by you as an intentional foul. Am I correct in what I have instructed my team to do?
Sometimes you are beat and the smart thing to do is give up the lay up and be in position to rebound the miss.

This is not the NBA playoffs, and you are not coaching the "Bad Boys" of the late 80's.

Stick to coaching how NOT to get beat, and beating the ball back, because a made basket is better than two shots and the ball or getting a player ejected.
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Old Tue Jan 18, 2005, 01:29pm
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Sometimes you are beat and the smart thing to do is give up the lay up and be in position to rebound the miss.

This is not the NBA playoffs, and you are not coaching the "Bad Boys" of the late 80's.

Stick to coaching how NOT to get beat, and beating the ball back, because a made basket is better than two shots and the ball or getting a player ejected. [/B][/QUOTE]


Well Said
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Old Tue Jan 18, 2005, 01:39pm
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I'll start by agreeing with everyone else, that sometimes you're better off giving up the basket. None of us want to see hard fouls, especially on purpose. That being said, I do understand, from the coaching perspective, that there are times when you'd rather put someone on the line rather than give up the layup. I know as officials we would like to take this aspect of coaching out of the game, but realistically its there and always will be. I would say get your girls to take a better angle on the play, anticipate the break-away (so they can get down the floor and into position) and make sure they are playing the ball.
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Old Tue Jan 18, 2005, 01:56pm
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This is what I look for:

If the foul is from behind, and there is not chance to block the shot cleanly, more than likely that will be an intentional foul. If a player is beat and the only way to get to the ball is to go through the player, then the defensive player has no legal play on the ball. If the defensive player is fouling just to stop the shot and not play the ball, you will get the intention foul called.

If the defensive player has adequate position (but not to take a charge) then a foul on the arm stopping the shot will result in just two shots, not an intentional. Fouls that play the man instead of the ball risk being called intentional and possibly flagrant - depending on the severity of the foul.
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Old Tue Jan 18, 2005, 05:06pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ref in PA
If the defensive player has adequate position (but not to take a charge) then a foul on the arm stopping the shot will result in just two shots, not an intentional. Fouls that play the man instead of the ball risk being called intentional and possibly flagrant - depending on the severity of the foul.
I'll back this analysis. The player that's beat enough that she cant take a charge, can still aim for the ball. If she gets both ball and arm, or even a little ball and mostly arm, it's still just a good solid foul. If she's far enough behind to have no chance at the ball, then she's better to just let it go.

Also, she should try to be on the side of the player the ball is on. This makes it easier to give the appearance of going for the ball. And she might try to just poke the ball away. I've seen this be very effective when the defender is beat. She can just reach under and tap the ball oob. Very little chance for a foul and it stops the shot.
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Old Tue Jan 18, 2005, 05:13pm
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Coach, I'm with everybody else on this one. You would be very wise to leave this one alone imo. You're coaching your players to foul an airborne shooter when they're in their most vulnerable position. You could get a serious injury out of this one very easily, especially with players who don't have the highest skill level and may still be a little awkward.

The FED issued a POE on this one a few years ago. They want us to call the so-called breakaway foul an intentional if there is excessive contact involved. The recommendation was that it didn't matter if the defender went after the ball, if you felt the contact was excessive then call it an intentional foul, or even a flagrant foul if the airborne shooter really gets dumped. As I said, you're taking your chances on this one.

Quotes from that POE:
Acts that may be deemed intentional include:
- grabbing or shoving a player from behind when an easy basket may be scored
- excessive contact on a player attempting a shot.

Part of our training is to go over this explicit call, and then ask our officials to call it the way that the FED wants.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jan 18th, 2005 at 05:17 PM]
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Old Wed Jan 19, 2005, 08:33am
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Smile thanks

Thanks for all of your thoughts.
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Old Wed Jan 19, 2005, 01:59pm
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Another reason I officiate and avoid coaching. Talk about a tough call - I'll take a block/charge any day over coaching.

Your situation is sort of like "don't clip" in football. Teaching a kid to "don't clip" causes the kid to hesitate which is disaster. Teach him, instead, to "get there!" With the break-away lay-up, stress the "ball" rather than "prevent the basket" - (get a piece of the ball rather than simply "prevent the basket"). They're kids and who knows what they'll do in an actual game. Reward the positive examples and stress the actionable positive of "getting the ball" rather than coach the negative, say your prayers and hang on tight. Same seems to work in officiating, work on the actionable positives (get the right angle, referee the defense, focus on your primary, versus don't get straight lined, don't be late, don't call out of your area, etc.) As in life, there is typically more success in positive actions rather than "avoiding" negatives - "play to win" vs. "trying not to lose".

I'm with the majority, tread lightly on this one - precarious situation, for a coach, at best. Give me a block/charge any day!
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