interesting 3 man occurrence.....want feedback

[Jeremy Hohn]

Hello,
I had something interesting happen tonight in Texas. I was calling a 4a boys game and a player from team a goes down the lane out of control and commits an apparent player control foul. I come up with the charge mechanic, and signal to the table accordingly. My co-official comes up and tells me that the player wasn't in control of the ball at the time of contact, so the foul wouldn't be player control, but just a common push foul. I say okay, and change my reporting procedure and go to the other end to shoot free throws. My third official comes up to us and asks us what we are doing, and we tell him that my lead official, woody, informed me that the ball was gone at the point of contact. I lost the ball in my attempt to pick up the defense so the help was fine with me. Our third official, carl protested vehomently with us, but we shot the one-and-one anyways. At halftime, he tore into us about it saying that we can't change the call after the initial presentation, but I told him it was more important that we got it right, and I didn't care if I had to change it. Carl was still upset and said "don't even come to me with that s--t because I ain't changing it" I know the error was mine in the initial mechanical presentation, and I felt it would be prideful on my part to ignore the fact of the matter that we had a common foul instead of a charge. I also know that woody, who has 20+ years experience, wouldn't come to me unless he was absolutely sure. Feedback??? Thanks

Jeremy Hohn

[Brian Watson]

I agree that the most important thing is to be right, even if you have to sack up and change a call.

In this case, I think you would have been OK to stick with the initial call, but if the ball was gone I can see it the other way as well. I would let you ask yourself this, if you knew the ball was gone, would you have made the call any different? If the answer is no, you should not have changed.

I would also suggest that when you're on a three man crew if any calls are going to be changed, all 3 officials huddle before doing that.

[WestCoastRef]

Your partner should have made every attempt to get to you before you reported your foul. You get the play right and don't have to eat so much crow in the process. Also make it look like you have excellent communication.

[DanIvey]

I can just see it now...I come up strong with a player control foul (btw, my favorite mechanic) and my partner wants to change it! Are you kidding me? If I went over and changed every bad call I thought my partner made during the game, how would that make us look as a team? Remember, we are a team out there and sometimes we have to live and die with our partners calls. It's not just how we "look" either. It's how we make the game look. It's our game management that is now under scrutiny.

Sure, there are some definite calls that can be changed, i.e. out of bounds, foot on the 3-point arc, rule interpretations, etc. but even these should be changed with discretion. Judgement calls, in my opinion, should not normally be changed.

NEWS FLASH: We are going to miss a call or two at some point during a game. Live with it, Learn from it...keep the game moving.

SIDENOTE: How would you like instant replay in Pro Basketball as there is in Pro Football? There are just to many calls in a basketball game...it all "evens" out in the end.

[Brian Watson]

It is a very, very fine line, but I think the difference here is not overuling a cal, but the application of rule. Was it or was it not a true control foul. Foul shots were involved, so I think this is within bounds of speaking up. I am not sure how he presented it, but I alwys suggest, never tell a partner what I saw.

Like: What did you see? I saw red touch it last. In this case I would have said, green lost the ball before there was any contact. I convey that my call is different, but I let him decide. And I don't seem pushy in the process.

For any rookies out there reading this, this should happen once every third blue moon, this is not normal!, so don't try this at home.

[BktBallRef]

I guess I'm in disagreement with some of the others. I believe you were right in changing the PC foul to a pushing or charging foul. If Woody was able to see the ball get away and I wasn't, then I don't have a problem with him coming to me and saying, "Did you see the ball get away from the dribbler before the foul?".

Getting the penalty administration correct is more important than worrying about someone's ego. We're not talking about someone running in and saying, "No, that wasn't foul." It's no different than going to a partner and telling him a shot went in or asking if he saw that a ball was last touch by the other team? And to say that you can't change a call after the"initial presentation" is ridiculous.

Is Carl always an ******* or was he just having an especially bad night?

[DanIvey]

I totally agree with you Brian...you sound like you would make a great partner!

[JRutledge]

I am sorry, but if someone does this to me on a foul call, they better be prepared to get bitched out by me at an intermission or after the game. There is no way anyone should try to change a call of another official on a foul!!!! You made the call, stick with it. This has nothing to do with getting it right or wrong, this has to do with credibility. Do you know how many calls that I miss or I think my partners miss during a game. And when you miss one (and depending on who the call went against, they think you missed it anyway), if your partner comes over and changes this, the coaches and players will want us to do this all the time. Officiating is a sales job more than anything, and we have to look confident in what we do at all times, when we do not, we undermine our authority and our calls. If you call a PC foul, you have already signaled the foul before you get to the table, no one should make or even expect you to change that then. The only help you should give a partner on a foul is tell him or her, the "basket counted" or "he was not shooting." Other than that you should not try to change calls in doing so, just give that person information to help them make a decision. It would not be the end of the world if they did what they felt. If you disagree that much, tell them after the game is over or at halftime.

[mick]

If you come to me, to suggest a different call, that is the way it will be. We will not discuss it, You are entirely sure of what happened, or we wouldn't be talking.
mick

[RookieDude]

What if your partner is "entirely sure" you don't have a player control foul? In other words, your partner saw the player in control lose the ball right before the contact.

[mick]

Originally posted by RookieDude
What if your partner is "entirely sure" you don't have a player control foul? In other words, your partner saw the player in control lose the ball right before the contact.

If he comes to me, then that is the way it is, because he knows for sure what had happened.
And you know what? Sometimes the crowd will nail a call that we kick, and that, in turn, could encourage your partner to come down to bail you out. And I give thanks whenever that happens.
mick

[JLK]

I believe that some good points are brought up on why you should or should not change your call. I can understand the importance of getting a call right and at the same time looking credible.

However, I'm going to bring another aspect into if you should or should not change the call. What if the call was late in the game and it was very close? Do you go ahead with the charge and let Team B have the ball and have them work for their points or do you have the common foul and let them get their points at the charity strip? What if the call was early in the game?

[bsilliman]

I saw this very thing in a game in Cedar City, Utah between Valpariso and Southern Utah University (of course this is D1).

Less than 2 minutes to go in a very close game. SUU player goes airborne, releases ball, and crashes into Valpo player who had established position well in front of the basket (ball goes in the basket prior to the crash).

Center calls player control and waves off basket. Trail comes in before he reports and they have a discussion.

Ruling: they count the basket, count a personal foul against the shooter and go to the other end for a bonus.

Explanation is given to both coaches and showing his class, the Valpo coach does not get into the officials faces for getting the call correct, but accepts the ruling and goes on coaching his team right to the end. Game ends withh SUU winning by 6 or 7.

[hoopsrefBC]

Work as a team (all three members)
Get the call RIGHT!
Communicate to everybody what your doing....and
Smile, it tells people your human.

keep smiling
SH

[Brian Watson]

Originally posted by bsilliman
I saw this very thing in a game in Cedar City, Utah between Valpariso and Southern Utah University (of course this is D1).

Less than 2 minutes to go in a very close game. SUU player goes airborne, releases ball, and crashes into Valpo player who had established position well in front of the basket (ball goes in the basket prior to the crash).

Center calls player control and waves off basket. Trail comes in before he reports and they have a discussion.

Ruling: they count the basket, count a personal foul against the shooter and go to the other end for a bonus.

Explanation is given to both coaches and showing his class, the Valpo coach does not get into the officials faces for getting the call correct, but accepts the ruling and goes on coaching his team right to the end. Game ends withh SUU winning by 6 or 7.

Why would homer complain? This is the right cll in D1 mens.