What's a foul these days?

[Starman311]

Over the last few years in Minnesota large high school basketball, I've noticed that the game is getting rougher and rougher. I've played basketball at both the high school and the division 1 college level. I've coached and officiated. But I'm just astonished at what the game has become. It is to the point now where there is constant hand checking and holding in defending the ball, blatant shoving, leaning, and pushing on rebounding positions and post defense, and significant contact allowed when defending or attempting to block a shot. Its gotten to the point where a foul is now a judgement call. And often times the foul is called on "touch" situations during an attempted shot or drive yet significantly more violent and "contact" defense is ignored entirely.

I should fairly add, however, that this is not always the case. But it does seem to be the scenario in most games I've watched over the last few years, with a trend toward allowing more contact over the last year, epecially in games involving very good teams. Also, I notice that again this will vary somewhat between officials. Some officials will not tolerate this type of contact on a consistent basis, but most do and, more accurately, seem to encourage it.

What is happening out there from the officating training and policy that is being encouraged these days? Is this the definite trend that is occuring? Does this vary between states? I and many I've talked with are very disappointed with this trend. Is there any movement to return back to what basketball really was meant to be where good offensive skills were rewarded and solid, intelligent, and legal defense is encouraged?

[zebraman]

OK, I replied to your first post and now I see you have made a second. You're starting to sound very much like someone in the stands just whining about calls (and no calls) What you are doing is making vague observations and asking us to comment on things we didn't see.

Every game you see probably has different officials with different experience and different ability levels.

A foul is always a judgement call. Contact (even severe contact) can occur at times which is not a foul.

Rough play is usually a POE (point of emphasis) in the NFHS rule book each year. Players get stronger and physical each year. In my state, I have seen (overall) that games are called a little tighter than 5 years ago due to an emphasis on cleaning it up from our state's Activities Association Executive Director.

Enough already.

Z

[Starman311]

Originally posted by zebraman
OK, I replied to your first post and now I see you have made a second. You're starting to sound very much like someone in the stands just whining about calls (and no calls) What you are doing is making vague observations and asking us to comment on things we didn't see.

Every game you see probably has different officials with different experience and different ability levels.

A foul is always a judgement call. Contact (even severe contact) can occur at times which is not a foul.

Rough play is usually a POE (point of emphasis) in the NFHS rule book each year. Players get stronger and physical each year. In my state, I have seen (overall) that games are called a little tighter than 5 years ago due to an emphasis on cleaning it up from our state's Activities Association Executive Director.

Enough already.

Z

Zebraman,

I appreciate the non-emotional parts of your answer. It helps me get your perspective on these issues. However, I don't appreciate the cheap categorization and insults. I would think a senior member of this organization can abstain from these types of remarks and offer wisdom and experience instead. That type of response is, in general, a cop out. I have given you specific detail in this question as well as the other that should enable you to give a non-emotional response to a specific question. I am simply trying to understand the referee's point of view and decision making process in these scenarios I've described. Why is it so difficult to address these questions? If you are an experienced and good official, this should not be that difficult.

In general, I am asking for a better understanding of what contact is allowed, when does it become too much, and why the specific examples I've described seem to be ignored more and more.

Also, please explain to me under what circumstances can there be extensive physical contact without a foul being called on one or both parties. I can visualize two players running toward a loose ball and colliding where no intentional foul or wrong-doing was initiated, but are there other situations that would warrent this type of no-call?

If you don't feel capable to address these questions, I hope that others may.

[Edited by Starman311 on Jan 4th, 2005 at 09:26 PM]

[zebraman]

Starman,

One thing I will tell you is that officials are more well-trained than ever. Many officials pay their own way to summer officating camp (some go to several camps in one summer), many of them study and officiate year-round and many of them are constantly talking with others and going over scenarios (just like this discussion board) to get better.

The one thing that has never changed is that the officials are generally the only ones in the gym that are unbaised. They are the only ones who don't care who wins. They are the only ones who judge their performance by not determining the outcome of the game. They are the only ones who only care about creating fair and balanced playing conditions.

I could go out on the floor with my partner(s) and officiate a perfect game. We could watch the tape afterwards with unbiased observers who would say that we did not miss a call and that we created a perfectly fair playing field. Still, there would be fans who left the gym that night thinking that we "cheated their team," thinking that play was too rough or thinking that we didn't "let them play" (yes, we could have fans thinking complete opposites after watching the SAME game), and others who even think that we are "encouraging" rough play.

You will think what you want regardless of how any of us respond. It's pointless. I have officiated a state championship game in my state, but obviously I am not capable of answering your questions.

Z

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Starman311
[/B]

If you are an experienced and good official, this should not be that difficult.

If you don't feel capable to address these questions, I hope that others may.

[/B][/QUOTE]Gee, I'd like to try and answer too, but I'm not very good or experienced either, and I'm certainly not that capable of addressing your questions either- especially compared to your very extensive and impressive resume as a player, coach and all-around basketball guru, as you so modestly pointed out to all of us in another post. I'm sure that Z will be along to apologize shortly. I just can't imagine how he ever thought that you were just another of those annoying, whiny-a$$ parents who come here to share with us their immense knowledge of what they happen to think the rules should be.

Please continue in your quest to straighten out all of the officiating problems and woes that are hampering your child from attaining his/her rightful future of high school and NCAA glory, not to mention that big pro contract too.

Lah me.

[JRutledge]

What's a foul these days?

What ever the official wants to call a foul. It is that simple.

Peace

[Adam]

Starman,
I think one thing that I haven't seen addressed in the responses (probably because many feel it is obvious, or because I'm a ref and I just didn't see it) is the concept of advantage/disadvantage.
There is a lot of contact throughout a game that, due to the skill and strength of the players involved, does not create any advantage for the responsible party. 95.43143143% of the time, this won't be a foul. The fact that we are all human means we will all see these plays differently.
Where I see an advantage, Zman may not; where Rainmaker sees an advantage, I might not.

This is why some fans can watch a game and think the refs let too much slide and others will see the same game and think they called too much.

[paxsonref]

Well put Snaq, Advantage/Disadvantage is one of they keys here, along with displacement. I referee in Minnesota and have worked with different officials that call the game different ways, but the better officials that I have worked with are the ones who let more contact go, not because they encourage the players to beat the hell out of each other, but because they are the ones that have a better understanding of A/D.

If the contact that occurs does not affect the play whatsoever, why call it? (unless its flagrant or intentional of course) If a defender pulls down a rebound and gets bumped from behind (lets just call it over the back for the fans in the crowd) and he does not lose control of the ball, where is the disadvantage here? Why should we be blowing our whistle? Break up the flow of the game for a bump that affected nothing at all? Why? So many officials want to let things go in a close game near the end because they "want the players to decide the game." IMO that should be looked at starting with the jump ball.

Two quotes that I've heard from assigners and supervisors that best describe this are as follows: "be comfortable with contact" had a supervisor at a camp tell us once that if you aren't comfortable with contact, find something else to do, because you won't make it here. As we all know, not all contact is a foul, so its up to us to decide what is, based again on A/D. The other quote is "less is more", speaking of the same idea of letting the game flow, getting what has to be got, and letting the players play.

Star, I assume that being from Minnesota you have probably watched some state tournament games there. One thing I've heard from fans is that they "really let them play when you get to state." Well I can tell you from experience that when we have the meeting for the state tournament, the supervisors do not tell us to "let them play". The reason this happens is that those officials working the state tournament are obviously the better officials in the state and in kind have a better understanding of A/D. The problem is that too many officials over officiate. They think that people are there to see them or something and they blow their damn whistle too much. Whether that is because they arent refereeing the defense or because they want to be the center of the show varies among officials.

I've worked games this year where we "let them play" and of course hear the boos and hollering from the crowd when there is a lot of contact on a drive where the defender jumps straight up, lots of contact, shooter goes down, and we have a no call because the defender did nothing wrong. They have as much right to a space on the floor as everyone else. The thing is after these games where both sides of the crowds hate us for not calling those things, I've almost always gotten praise from both coaches for calling it the way we did. Also regarding your other post about PC fouls, I will defend the fact that it is always judgment and you have to be there to see it, but I will also concede that WAY too many officials call a block where a charge is warranted, and again this comes back to refereeing the defense, which is a tough habit to learn if you were a fan or a player or a dad, because you have always been so used to watching the player with the ball. So I will concede that that is one place where we can all improve.

I am assuming you are in the twin cities are with the large school high schools?

[Nevadaref]

When I watch old films of college and pro basketball from the 60s, 70s, and 80s on ESPN classic, I am amazed that the players rarely touch each other. It's a very hands-off, non-pushing game. Even the Georgetown teams of the early to mid 80s weren't physical by today's NCAA men's standard.

I actually see a vast difference in the way the 20+ year vets call the game and the way the up-and-coming officials do. Those who recently played and/or have started officiating in the past 5-10 years are much more comfortable with allowing contact and not blowing the whistle. Especially those from big cities.
I am a member of the younger group and when I step on the floor with a guy with a lot of seniority, it rarely goes well. We just don't call the same game. I'm not saying that those guys don't call a good game, just a different one than I do.

The only thing that I can tell you is that the game has changed, probably a lot since you played, and you are just going to have to deal with it. We will never go back to the old style of basketball. It's gone.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by paxsonref

Two quotes that I've heard from assigners and supervisors that best describe this are as follows: "be comfortable with contact" had a supervisor at a camp tell us once that if you aren't comfortable with contact, find something else to do, because you won't make it here.

Wow, pax! I hadn't even read your post when I wrote mine and I wrote almost the same thing.

Although, I have never been told this at a camp by a supervisor, assignor, or mentor. I kind of just figured it out on my own watching the top guys work.

FWIW, I believe that the HS game is often more physical than the NCAA level.
With the TV and added scrutiny, I believe that those guys can let less go, than the average HS official can.

[tomegun]

I'm sort of stuck on officials encouraging contact. How do we do that? Everyone has made good posts to describe how the current game is played. It is just so much different. Could anyone imagine LeBron James playing back in the 60s? He would totally dominate and the kid just turned 20. It wasn't even fair for him to play in HS the year before last! What about Shaq playing in the 50s? If we called all contact fouls then a HS game would probably take about 2.5 hours to do.

Starman, I don't think it is right for you to come on this board, criticize officials and then get sensitive when someone doesn't answer your questions the way you want. We take so much crap during a game and at other times it is pathetic. Can we have one public forum where we can say something back? You mentioned all this other crap but you never mentioned the fact that officials get dumped on more than ever. We were not born officials, we are men and women just like you and sometimes we get sick and tired of hearing dumb commments like yours. Yes, your comments were dumb because if you really do have one year officiating, have read the book and had some type of training you wouldn't ask that crap.

[paxsonref]

I think another reason that it appears that high school games become more physical than some NCAA games is the simple fact the players in college are a lot more skilled and talented and can handle the contact a lot easier. The high school kids aren't able to adjust as well and thats when they start to get a little chippy and do stupid stuff. Those teams with coaches who can get the kids to play through it and not worry about wanting every little bump to be a foul are much better off because they can just get out there an play the game and now worry about what the officials are doing.

Oh, and to refer the the block/chage post from earlier. . . I have NEVER had anyone get hurt by taking a charge in a game, and even if I did, they were gonna get hurt whether it was called a charge or a block. . . but thats a topic for another post . . .

[ChrisSportsFan]

Originally posted by tomegun
I'm sort of stuck on officials encouraging contact. How do we do that? Everyone has made good posts to describe how the current game is played. It is just so much different. Could anyone imagine LeBron James playing back in the 60s? He would totally dominate and the kid just turned 20. It wasn't even fair for him to play in HS the year before last! What about Shaq playing in the 50s? If we called all contact fouls then a HS game would probably take about 2.5 hours to do.

If Shaq's free throws are bricks now, just imagine back in HS, heck it would take all night just to chase those things down.

Starman, please take a minute to review the thread on... how most people see us. While I certainly cannot comment on what you saw, I will admit that not all of us have our "A" game every single game. If you saw refs having a "B or C" game, you shouldn't catagorize ALL High School Refs for the entire state. Hey, if you feel you're really onto something, don't get all sesitive and shut down. Just think about how you phrase your comments and make sure you're not complaining to us as we already hear enought of that.

[Edited by ChrisSportsFan on Jan 5th, 2005 at 11:04 AM]

[Smitty]

Better yet, Starman should sign up next season to become a high school basketball referee. There's no more humbling experience for those of us who thought we knew everything about the game than to start to referee the game. Seriously, Starman, it's a highly rewarding experience and you can begin to make a real difference if you think you can make the game better for all involved. Step up and become part of the solution if you think there's a real problem in the way the game is officiated.

[Rich]

Originally posted by Smitty
Better yet, Starman should sign up next season to become a high school basketball referee. There's no more humbling experience for those of us who thought we knew everything about the game than to start to referee the game. Seriously, Starman, it's a highly rewarding experience and you can begin to make a real difference if you think you can make the game better for all involved. Step up and become part of the solution if you think there's a real problem in the way the game is officiated.

My partner and I do not call a lot of fouls, when possible. Every bit of contact is evaluated for advantage/disadvantage. There are few automatics -- if the defender goes down from contact, SOMETHING is being called, if practical. If BOTH players go down after contact something is being called.

But not all contact involving a driving player is a foul. There can be significant contact on a drive that is let go by me -- the best example is a drive and a defender that establishes and maintains LGP and forces a bump that causes a shot to be inaccurate. The driver was put at a disadvantage by a poor decision to drive, but not such a poor decision (or enough contact) to warrant a PC foul.

Happens all night. I'm not there to see 50 fouls called in a game and neither are the players, coaches, parents (even though they think they are), and other assorted spectators. It's common (in a boys game) for us to only hit the bonus in the second half and only when teams elect to start fouling.

We get the ones we need to get, trust me. I had a rugby match of a boys game last week and we called a LOT of fouls.

And A/D works best at the varsity level or above. At the lower levels and in many V girls games, contact puts the players at such a disadvantage that you have to call a lot of fouls in situations where you 'd likely pass on them in a V boys game.

Just how this one zebra sees it.

--Rich