Fight in the stands

[JRutledge]

This is an incident that took place where I live.

Security swells at prep tourney
Rich S. incidents bring response
By Barry Temkin
Tribune staff reporter

December 31, 2004

Security officials were doing hall duty Thursday night before the championship game of the 32nd annual Big Dipper basketball tournament at Rich South.

"Let's keep it moving," a blue-jacketed guard said as he moved down a hallway near the gym. "You're either in or you're out."

The need for increased vigilance took on more urgency after Wednesday night's semifinal game between Hales Franciscan and Bloom when Hales standout Nate Minnoy left the floor during play late in the third quarter and began to go into the bleachers to confront a fan who allegedly had been heckling him.

Security personnel quickly intervened, witnesses said, and there were no punches thrown or other physical contact. Play resumed after several minutes, and Hales won to advance to the championship game against Thornton.

Minnoy was assessed his second technical foul of the game, which resulted in an automatic ejection and his suspension from Thursday's contest.

Both Minnoy and the spectator, whose name was unavailable, were taken to the Richton Park police station, cited with breach of the peace—a violation of a local ordinance—and released, according to a police official. Minnoy did not attend Thursday's game, which took place largely without incident, except for a brief scuffle in the stands, before Thornton's 71-58 victory.

Loitering, a time-honored tradition at high school basketball games, already had become a no-no at Rich South after a series of fan incidents Monday, the first day of the event in this south suburb. Hats now had to be removed, too, Rich South principal Roudell Kirkwood said, and fans would not be allowed to stand for more than a few moments at a time in the stands.

Kirkwood said that after the Monday incident officials increased the number of security personnel in the building from 20 to about 45. That included Richton Park police and Cook County sheriff's police as well as police from other communities who posed as fans.

The Wednesday incident at Rich South followed by several weeks the brawl that broke out in the stands during a Pistons-Pacers NBA game when Pacers star Ron Artest went after a fan.

"With all that happening with pro basketball, we say, 'Hey, is this filtering down to our levels?'" Kirkwood said.

Hales coach Gary London believes the answer is yes.

"I think the fan and Nate were influenced by what happened in the NBA," said London, who said Hales officials had not yet determined if the school will discipline Minnoy, a senior who has signed with Purdue. "You show that fight for hours on TV, and people will be influenced by it. It's crazy. When I first saw Nate over there, I immediately had flashbacks to Detroit."

Kirkwood said the spectator seemed surprised he was not simply ejected from the building, but the school officials wanted to send a message: "We just can't have unruly fans. Especially with the incident Monday, we need to assess how to continue how to have a safe environment for our fans."

Monday, officials stopped the day's last game, between Rich Central and Eisenhower, late in the fourth quarter after play had been halted several times because of fan altercations. Unruly fans later knocked over partitions as they left the school, creating a sharp sound that caused other fans, thinking they had heard a gunshot, to storm out of the stands.

Tai Streets, a Thornton graduate and currently a wide receiver with the Detroit Lions and the coach of the South Suburban MeanStreets club basketball team, said before the title game that he frequently endures heckling.

"You've got to be mentally strong and ignore it," he said in reference to Minnoy, whom Streets does not coach. "You hope Nate learns from it."
Copyright © 2004, The Chicago Tribune

[zebraman]

Rut,

Isn't this the part where you say something intelligent like, "I don't blame the player one bit?"

Z

[JRutledge]

Z,

Actually I take the same attitude that Dave Gannaway took the head of the IHSA Department. He said in one of the papers that the schools need to take responsibility for the behavior of fans. That has always been my position. If this fan was not getting personal, there would be no fight. The prosecutor said the same thing about the fan that threw the beer. "If the fan does not throw the beer, we are not even at this point." Fans cannot do anything and think that people are not going to react to them.

Peace

[Mark Padgett]

I don't believe a word of this story. There's no way there was an altercation without involving a player from Bloom. I ought to know - that's where I went to high school. We easily had the worst behaved athletes and fans in the known universe.....and proud of it.

We were the guys who originated the cheer (when an opponent was about to shoot a free throw):

"See that basket. See that ball. C'mon stupid. Hit the wall."

[zebraman]

I'm sure there is plenty of blame to go around. There will always be idiots in the stands saying things, even at a high school game. In this case, there wasn't any ice or beer thrown, just moronic heckling.

Sounds like the school administrators maybe could have removed the heckler before it got so bad, especially since it sounds like there is a history at this event. That's pretty bad when the paper says that the following game took place largely without incident... except for a scuffle in the stands. I have never seen scuffle in the stands at any game I have reffed. That would be huge news here but it's "largely without incident" there. LOL.

That being said, the schools cannot prevent every dumb comment that will be said from the bleachers. Players need to ignore the idiots. The coach is right when he says that the player needs to be mentally strong and ignore it.

Z

[Nevadaref]

"Minnoy was assessed his second technical foul of the game, which resulted in an automatic ejection and his suspension from Thursday's contest."

Good job by the officials.

"Both Minnoy and the spectator, whose name was unavailable, were taken to the Richton Park police station, cited with breach of the peace—a violation of a local ordinance—and released, according to a police official."

Doubly good job by the authorities.

Originally posted by JRutledge
He said in one of the papers that the schools need to take responsibility for the behavior of fans. That has always been my position.

I agree that the spectators need to exhibit better sportsmanship, especially at the high school level. The game management people need to make it clear that this kind of behavior is not acceptable. A local official here and friend of mine even issued a technical foul last week to the crowd at a school for making racial remarks toward the visiting team.

Originally posted by JRutledge
If this fan was not getting personal, there would be no fight.

This I don't agree with. Fans make remarks from the stands quite frequently at numerous games and fights don't start. They may share part of the blame for an incident, but there is definitely another step in there that must be taken before a fight breaks out. Specifically, it takes a poor response to the fan's bad behavior to have a fight.

Originally posted by JRutledge
The prosecutor said the same thing about the fan that threw the beer. "If the fan does not throw the beer, we are not even at this point."

He said that because it's his job. He needs to make his case against that Detroit fan in court. What do you expect him to say as an attorney?
Just because a lawyer said it, doesn't make it the truth. You of all people on this forum should know that. You don't even accept official reports as truthful accounts of an incident. Try to be consistent in your stances.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

This I don't agree with. Fans make remarks from the stands quite frequently at numerous games and fights don't start. They may share part of the blame for an incident, but there is definitely another step in there that must be taken before a fight breaks out. Specifically, it takes a poor response to the fan's bad behavior to have a fight.

I never said there was not some blame to go around. If fans would act in a sportsmanlike manner, this does not happen. We do not know what this guy said to him. We do not know if there were some racial slurs or very vulgar comments made. We are not talking about 15,000 people in the stands in a Stadium. We are talking maybe a couple of thousand people at the most (and that could be pushing it) and not very hard to identify who these individuals are. Most schools know who their fans are and where they live. You do not need video tape to identify most of them. Especially at tournaments like this. I threw out a fan about 5 years ago from the visiting team. The Principal of that school not only knew the fan, but knew his complete name. So when I filled out my report, I did not have to guess who this person was.

Originally posted by JRutledge
He said that because it's his job. He needs to make his case against that Detroit fan in court. What do you expect him to say as an attorney?
Just because a lawyer said it, doesn't make it the truth. You of all people on this forum should know that. You don't even accept official reports as truthful accounts of an incident. Try to be consistent in your stances.

Just because he said that, does not make him wrong. You might disagree, but it is not my job and I feel these fans get away with a lot and the schools or game management do little to nothing. There have been fights around here with players and fans before the Detroit incident and only then did those schools take action they should have always taken. I have known officials to get attack. I have personally been approached on the baseball diamond after a game a few times. No one there to make sure I was safe or my partner, but I have to deal with someone coming to gripe about some call and says anything to me? I know many officials that have been complaining about security for years and only when something happens does everyone take notice.

Peace

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by JRutledge
... I feel these fans get away with a lot and the schools or game management do little to nothing. There have been fights around here with players and fans before the Detroit incident and only then did those schools take action they should have always taken. I have known officials to get attack. I have personally been approached on the baseball diamond after a game a few times. No one there to make sure I was safe or my partner, but I have to deal with someone coming to gripe about some call and says anything to me? I know many officials that have been complaining about security for years and only when something happens does everyone take notice.

A quality point and maybe something good is actually coming out of the whole Pistons/Pacers incident.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I never said there was not some blame to go around.

In the Pistons/Pacers thread you most certainly did. You said that you "do not blame the players one bit." That remark was memorably ignorant, even coming from you.

Z

[mick]

Oh, my!

[JRutledge]

Z,

Actually Z that is not exactly what I said. I said that I did not blame the players for their actions. I did not care if they were millionaires and made more money than the fans (like was the position of many). They have a right to be protected and the not with any feeling of being threatened. Things being thrown at them and fans coming onto the court is a threat to me. Just like this HS player that was in this particular altercation. Now I was not at this particular HS tournament and there is not video tape or audio tape to show us all what happen. I feel that everyone has a breaking point. Just because you are a fan does not give you the right to say and do whatever you like. That is what I said Z. Now could the player in this case just turn the other cheek, of course he could have. But he also should not have to tolerate any behavior. That has been my position all along. Sorry that you feel that people should be called anything and no one should say anything to them. I feel human beings should be treated with dignity. I do not care if it is a sporting event or on the street. Either way you do not have the right to say or do whatever you like.

Peace

[zebraman]

Originally posted by JRutledge
Z,

Actually Z that is not exactly what I said. I said that I did not blame the players for their actions. I did not care if they were millionaires and made more money than the fans (like was the position of many). They have a right to be protected and the not with any feeling of being threatened. Things being thrown at them and fans coming onto the court is a threat to me. Just like this HS player that was in this particular altercation. Now I was not at this particular HS tournament and there is not video tape or audio tape to show us all what happen. I feel that everyone has a breaking point. Just because you are a fan does not give you the right to say and do whatever you like. That is what I said Z. Now could the player in this case just turn the other cheek, of course he could have. But he also should not have to tolerate any behavior. That has been my position all along. Sorry that you feel that people should be called anything and no one should say anything to them. I feel human beings should be treated with dignity. I do not care if it is a sporting event or on the street. Either way you do not have the right to say or do whatever you like.

Peace

Your exact quote in the Ron Artest thread was "I do not blame any of the players at all." Nuff said.

Z

[canuckrefguy]

Z,

Though I agree more with your position than Rut's, I think you're oversimplifying his remarks from the other thread. And your ignorance comment was out of line.

[zebraman]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
Z,

Though I agree more with your position than Rut's, I think you're oversimplifying his remarks from the other thread. And your ignorance comment was out of line.

It's hard to oversimplify a direct quote. Besides, I think that represented his views pretty accurately. If you recall the Artest thread, the ignorance quote was right on target.

Z

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by zebraman
Though I agree more with your position than Rut's, I think you're oversimplifying his remarks from the other thread. And your ignorance comment was out of line.

It's hard to oversimplify a direct quote. Besides, I think that represented his views pretty accurately. If you recall the Artest thread, the ignorance quote was right on target.

Z [/B][/QUOTE]

I do not recall that any one statement sums up my opinion on this. I do feel that people that are provoked, whether you like it or not will act in ways that can in retrospect be seen as out of line. I do think that Artest and O'Neal felt provoked and reacted. Should they have acted that way? I do not think so totally. But I do understand why they did. Do I feel the same way about this kid? Yes I do. If certain things are said to anyone, I do not expect them to just walk away. I realize that complicated issues might be hard for you to grasp, but this issue is not just black and white. We have people in this world that think they can say and do anything because they pay money and go to a sporting event. This kid is a rather big kid and I know most people would not dare call him names or talk about his family unless they were willing to have him step to him. Just because this is a sporting event does not make the fan's behavior acceptable. You seem to think that a kid should not be protected from that type of abuse. We are now in this society talking about how verbal abuse is about as bad as physical abuse and we allow people to go to events and call people all kinds of names. I guess you think someone should be called a racial slur and just walk away? I guess you feel like someone can threaten you and the person threatened should walk away? I guess you feel that someone can throw something at you and just walk away? Where is the line? Gunplay? Bottles thrown?

Peace