Substitute Entry?

[AlwaysLearningRef]

Player holding ball out of bounds on a spot throw-in. Timekeeper inadvertently buzzes horn for a substitute, not noticing the ball had been made live. All players stop upon hearing buzzer. Ref blows whistle to stop play.

Under NFHS, can the substitute enter at this point? If answer involves a case play or interpretation, please provide reference. Thank you for help.

[BktBallRef]

Yes, a substitute who can otherwise legally enter the game, can enter at ANY dead ball when the clock is stopped.

It's similiar to an official granting Team B a TO when Team B has the ball. Once you blow the whistle, the TO is granted because the ball is dead.

[nine01c]

It would be common practice for the referee to "ignore" the horn once the player has the ball for throw-in (ref usually knows it is for a sub). He would continue his 5 second count. Players should know not to stop play on the horn (after all, didn't we remind them at our Captains' Meeting?).

Although the referee can allow the sub in the play above (after table disrupts play), he will have a smoother game by making "late reporters" wait until the next dead ball.
The referee has to control this, or subs will be filtering in one by one, buzz, buzz, buzz.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by nine01c
Although the referee can allow the sub in the play above (after table disrupts play), he will have a smoother game by making "late reporters" wait until the next dead ball.

Are you advocating not allwoing this sub in? By rule, you can't do that. If you kill the play and the sub is waiting at the table, the rules do not allow you to not beckon him.

[AlwaysLearningRef]

Thank you, BBRef.

Nine01c,
I agree with you that refs should try to ignore the horn and have the players play through the situation. But, in this situation, the refs have already stopped play because the players stopped due to the confusion.

I don't know of any rule that allows the refs to keep the sub out of the game at this time (under NFHS). Has there been any special case to suggest the sub should not enter? I believe that the sub can enter at this dead ball, similar to a dead ball for inadvertent whistle.

I believe the NCAA added a rule to address this for the last 59.9 seconds of the game. Is there anything similar for NFHS?

Thanks.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by AlwaysLearningRef


I believe the NCAA added a rule to address this for the last 59.9 seconds of the game. Is there anything similar for NFHS?

Thanks.

This rule applies to inadvertent whistles or stoppage of play to correct a timers error.

I do not believe the play we are discussing falls under this rule. IOO let the sub in if you decide to blow the whistle since you're not correcting a timing error and it's not inadvertent.

[ref18]

Although I might be wrong, I believe the NCAA rule deals with the ball being dead and the clock being stopped after a made basket. Which is where subs are not permitted to enter the game.

If the horn blows, just ignore it, unless there's something urgent that the timer/scorer needs to tell you. If it's for subs, don't stop play and make the subs wait, they should've been there earlier.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ref18
Although I might be wrong, I believe the NCAA rule deals with the ball being dead and the clock being stopped after a made basket. Which is where subs are not permitted to enter the game.

This is true, but I think he's referring to ncaa 3-4-7, which was added recently. BTW, I see the women's rule is more strict and would prevent a sub coming in EXCEPT for a foul, violation or timeout. The men's version only prevents subs for inadvertent whistles or whistles to fix a timer's error under 59.9 of the second or OT.

[nine01c]

NFHS
I'm not advocating disallowing the sub in this case (whistle). All I'm saying is that you will have a smoother game and follow proper protocol (Rule 3-3 d) if you becon reported subs (the ones at the table or X ready to come in) just after the ball becomes dead. Experienced refs will glance over at the table for these subs even if the horn does not alert them. Call them in, resume play. If a straggler comes running over to sub while you are ready to put the ball at the disposal, then NO, you do not have to allow him until the next dead ball.

The best way to manage this is to ask the table crew not to buzz except for subs ready enter just when the ball becomes dead. Please, no late horn after the reported subs have entered. You might allow a straggler in once in a while, but a steady diet of it will disrupt the flow of your game (IMO).

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ref18
If the horn blows, just ignore it, unless there's something urgent that the timer/scorer needs to tell you. If it's for subs, don't stop play and make the subs wait, they should've been there earlier.

Ah, but what if they were there and you missed them?

[ref18]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Ah, but what if they were there and you missed them?

Now, I don't have my books with me, but I'm gonna say that the subs have to wait for the next dead ball if I missed them.

[BktBallRef]

I'm just saying that it's not always the subs' fault. Sometimes we do miss them, all of us have at one time or another.

[ref18]

Speaking of missing subs, does anyone get timers who can't for the life of them understand that we want to hear a horn right after we make the call, not after we realize and then beckon the subs in

[BktBallRef]

I don't want to hear a horn unless I miss the sub, and then I want to hear it before I put the ball in play.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Dec 29th, 2004 at 01:43 AM]