Inboudn play with 2.8 seconds left

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
The biggest problem with this play is still R5-10-1&2. Ms. Struckhoff said that you could take 0.2 to 0.4 seconds off of the clock. Those rules doesn't allow you to do that. Ever! You have to have an official's count or some other official information to put time back on, and you are very specifically not allowed to guess at how much actual time to put back on. You have to know the exact time. Her ruling does not allow for that.

Mark, you didn't point that out to Mary, and she's not rules-knowledgeable enough to connect the dots. She's an editor, not a rules-maker. That's why I'll wait until I see an actual ruling in the book before I'll accept her e-mail. Of course, if a ruling is put in the book affirming your stance, I'll acknowledge at that time that you were right too. But not until then.

JR:

I am not that crazy about taking time of the clock myself because the officials do have definite knowledge of the time left in the game and if I had been the Referee in the game I would have reset the clock to the time it showed when it was stopped for the timeout.

But the point that many people are missing is that R5-S9-A4 is the governing rule. It is first among equals. The game clock cannot start before the criteria of this rule is met. This criteria has to be met before the Trail or Timer can do anything. If the criteria of R5-S9-A4 are met, then for all intents and purposes, the clock starts then not before or later regardless of what the Trail or Timer did or did not do before the criteria of R5-S9-A4 are met.

When rules conflict, one rule has to take precedence over the other. A case in point was whether the line-up could be changed without penalty so that a substitute could shoot the free throws when the game is to start with a technical foul. One section says that anybody including incoming substitutes can shoot the free throws, but another section says that the starting lineup can't be changed without penalty, with exceptions. Well, the interpretation was that the incoming substitute could shoot the free throws and there would be no penalty for changing the starting lineup. The reasoning being that for all intents and purposes the game had in effect started for the purposes of changing the starting lineup when the technical foul was committed. Then a few years ago, the Rules Committee clarified that exception in the rules.

I cannot endorse your comment about Mary not being able to connect the dots. There have been times when I have disagreed with Mary over philosophy, I know for a fact that she is very open to discussion. I think that you are being very unfair with your comment.

MTD, Sr.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

I cannot endorse your comment about Mary not being able to connect the dots. There have been times when I have disagreed with Mary over philosophy, I know for a fact that she is very open to discussion. I think that you are being very unfair with your comment.

[/B]

Mark, I just don't think that Mary is as rules-knowledgeable as the other members of the Rules Committee. She does a great job as "editor", but "editing" rules is completely different than "making" or "interpreting" the rules, and "editing" is her main job. That was the point that I was trying to make. There was no intent to run Mary down or slag her in any way. I've met her before and she's a very nice person.

As for your interpretation on this particular play, I can certainly see your point--but I'm really not comfortable with it for reasons that I've posted before. Blind Zebra's points seem to be closer to my own take on this one. It would be nice if the FED would address this particular play, so that we do have some guidance if it ever does come up.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

JR:

I am not that crazy about taking time of the clock myself because the officials do have definite knowledge of the time left in the game and if I had been the Referee in the game I would have reset the clock to the time it showed when it was stopped for the timeout.

But the point that many people are missing is that R5-S9-A4 is the governing rule. It is first among equals. The game clock cannot start before the criteria of this rule is met. This criteria has to be met before the Trail or Timer can do anything. If the criteria of R5-S9-A4 are met, then for all intents and purposes, the clock starts then not before or later regardless of what the Trail or Timer did or did not do before the criteria of R5-S9-A4 are met.

When rules conflict, one rule has to take precedence over the other. A case in point was whether the line-up could be changed without penalty so that a substitute could shoot the free throws when the game is to start with a technical foul. One section says that anybody including incoming substitutes can shoot the free throws, but another section says that the starting lineup can't be changed without penalty, with exceptions. Well, the interpretation was that the incoming substitute could shoot the free throws and there would be no penalty for changing the starting lineup. The reasoning being that for all intents and purposes the game had in effect started for the purposes of changing the starting lineup when the technical foul was committed. Then a few years ago, the Rules Committee clarified that exception in the rules.

I cannot endorse your comment about Mary not being able to connect the dots. There have been times when I have disagreed with Mary over philosophy, I know for a fact that she is very open to discussion. I think that you are being very unfair with your comment.

MTD, Sr.

For the final time, you are adding what you want to fit your argument.

5-9 is about HOW THE CLOCK STARTS.

5-9-1 gives the how, which is on the OFFICIAL'S SIGNAL, 5-9-2 tells when that signal happens on a jump ball, 5-9-3 says when it happens on a free throw, and 5-9-4 says when the OFFICIAL SIGNALS ON A THROW IN.

Where does it authorize the timer to IGNORE the signal? I can see where it authorizes the timer to start the clock per rule, 5-9-2,3,4, if the official NEGLECTS to signal, yet our official did not neglect the signal, he INCORRECTLY gave the signal.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by blindzebra

For the final time, you are adding what you want to fit your argument.

5-9 is about HOW THE CLOCK STARTS.

5-9-1 gives the how, which is on the OFFICIAL'S SIGNAL, 5-9-2 tells when that signal happens on a jump ball, 5-9-3 says when it happens on a free throw, and 5-9-4 says when the OFFICIAL SIGNALS ON A THROW IN.

Where does it authorize the timer to IGNORE the signal? I can see where it authorizes the timer to start the clock per rule, 5-9-2,3,4, if the official NEGLECTS to signal, yet our official did not neglect the signal, he INCORRECTLY gave the signal.

blindzebra:

You are missing the most important point, and that is the duties of the Game Official and the Timer (R5-S9-A1) cannot be carried out until the criteria of R5-S9-A4 are met. Article 4 has to occur first before Articl 1 can come into play. I guess you could compare this play with the question: If a tree falls in the woods and there is nobody present to hear it fall, has it fallen? And the answer is yes. The starts because of Article 4, not because of Article 1. It does not matter whehter the Game Official or Timer followed Article 1, the criteria for Article 4 was met the the clock did not start per the criteria of Article 4.

MTD, Sr.

[cmathews]

Mark,
Yes A4 should happen before the clock starts, no one disagrees with that. However an error was made. We all agree with that. Since an error was made, we have to decide who made the error to decide how to proceed. Since A1 says the timer should start the clock when the official signals, then the error goes to the official. Since the official made the error then we can decide how to handle it. Mark how can you disregard rules, A1 of the rule clearly states that the clock operator is to start it on the the signal from the referee...

As for Mary and her interp, oddly enough I emailed the NFHS to get an interp, the only official interps they will give are to the individual states, not individuals, so by the NFHS own rules that cannot be an official interp. For that and some reasons mentioned above, I am not buying Mary's ruling either. One of the reasons, is this, you gave her your interp basically and asked her to agree or disagree, what you should have done was give her the play and let her come up with her own interp with no undue influence...

[Edited by cmathews on Dec 18th, 2004 at 03:55 PM]

[Mark Dexter]

I think everyone is focusing far too much attention on the timer.

Basic question - when is the CLOCK supposed to start? Answer - when the final pass is touched inbounds. If the clock starts before then, there is an obvious timing error (I don't care who caused it) and it needs to be fixed.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by cmathews

As for Mary and her interp, oddly enough I emailed the NFHS to get an interp, the only official interps they will give are to the individual states, not individuals, so by the NFHS own rules that cannot be an official interp. For that and some reasons mentioned above, I am not buying Mary's ruling either.

That was my understanding too. Right at the front of the rules and case book is a little printed message that states:

"Requests for basketball rules interpretations or explanations should be directed to the state association responsible for the high school basketball program in your state. The NFHS will assist in answering rules questions from state associations whenever called upon".

We already have a reply on this one from Arizona that should be official, and now we have a different reply from the NFHS rules editor. That's why I think I'll wait to see something in writing come down from the NFHS.

Btw, that's an old trick that you picked up on Mark using. It's always easier to convince someone if you just supply info that will support your stance. I useta use that one at budget time every year- before I retired. The best way to present this situation is to just send the details and simply ask for a ruling and explanation.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I think everyone is focusing far too much attention on the timer.

Basic question - when is the CLOCK supposed to start? Answer - when the final pass is touched inbounds. If the clock starts before then, there is an obvious timing error (I don't care who caused it) and it needs to be fixed.

I've agreed with that all along. That's also why I can't understand how you can put anything less than 2.8 seconds back on the clock when that's the only "official information" on time that you have on this play.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

I've agreed with that all along. That's also why I can't understand how you can put anything less than 2.8 seconds back on the clock when that's the only "official information" on time that you have on this play.

I've been saying all along that it should be 2.8.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

blindzebra:

You are missing the most important point, and that is the duties of the Game Official and the Timer (R5-S9-A1) cannot be carried out until the criteria of R5-S9-A4 are met. Article 4 has to occur first before Articl 1 can come into play. I guess you could compare this play with the question: If a tree falls in the woods and there is nobody present to hear it fall, has it fallen? And the answer is yes. The starts because of Article 4, not because of Article 1. It does not matter whehter the Game Official or Timer followed Article 1, the criteria for Article 4 was met the the clock did not start per the criteria of Article 4.

MTD, Sr.

No, you are missing the point. You can't pick and choose what rule you want to follow and arbitrarily decide which rule to use.

5-9-1 is what tells the timer to start the clock on the signal. 5-9-2, 3, and 4 tell the OFFICIAL when to signal.

The timer followed 5-9-1, that makes this an OFFICIAL'S ERROR.

You also have a timing error in 5.10.1.C, but it was with the official's count, so by rule it can not be fixed. Our play is no different, you have an official who DID not do the prescribed mechanic correctly, thus causing time to expire.

Until you can find a rule or case play that says the timer is authorized to ignore the official's signal, you have no argument. The timer started the clock per the rules, and this is an official's error.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I think everyone is focusing far too much attention on the timer.

Basic question - when is the CLOCK supposed to start? Answer - when the final pass is touched inbounds. If the clock starts before then, there is an obvious timing error (I don't care who caused it) and it needs to be fixed.

Thank you Mark.

MTD, Sr.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Our older son was competing in the first H.S. swim meet of his career and while I was watching the meet before he was to swim, I thought of a play that will show that NFHS R5-S9-A4 takes precedence over R5-S9-A1.

B1 is Team B’s best three-point field goal shooter, but he is not one of the five best defensive players on Team B. Team B scores a field goal to cut Team A’s lead to one point. Team A inbounds the ball and B2 immediately commits a common foul against A1. Team A is in the double bonus. A1’s first free throw attempt is successful. B6, a much better defensive player than B1, replaces B1 after A1’s first free throw attempt. Coach B has B1 remain at the Scorer’s/Timer’s Table. Coach B wants B1 to replace B6 at the first opportunity to re-enter the game. A2 commits a free throw violation during A1’s second free throw attempt. Team B is awarded a designated throw-in on the end line in its backcourt because of A2 free throw violation. B2 will attempt the throw-in for Team B. Team A has 7’-00” tall A3 guard B2. The Trail official places the ball at B2’s disposal and keeps one arm raised with an open hand to signify that the clock shall remain stopped. B2 releases the ball in an attempt to pass the ball over A3. A3 blocks B2’s pass back against the wall behind B2. The ball goes from A3’s hands to the wall so quickly that the Trail official cannot do anything but to sound his whistle to stop play because of the out-of-bounds violation by A3; the Trail’s raised hand is never lowered.

From this point, the play has four different options. The game clock’s visible display can be shown in either (1) whole seconds (GC-1), or (2) tenths of a second (GC-2). The game clock controller unit has a LCD that shows the Timer how much time is on the game clock; the LCD shows the time in tenths of a second no matter which of the two types of visible displays are used.

When the game clock was stopped for B2’s common foul, the game clock with the visible display in whole seconds shows 11 seconds, and the game clock with the visible display in tenths of a second shows 11.9 seconds. The LCD display on both controllers show 00:11.9 second. We now have the four plays below:


After the Trail sounds his whistle:

Play A-1: The visible display of GC-1 shows 11 seconds and the LCD shows 11.9 seconds.

Play A-2: The visible display of GC-2 shows 11.9 seconds and the LCD shows 11.9 seconds.

Play B-1: The visible display of GC-1 shows 11 seconds and the LCD shows 11.1 seconds.

Play B-2: The visible display of GC-2 shows 11.1 seconds and the LCD shows 11.1 seconds.

Can B1 re-enter the game and replace B6 before Team B attempts its throw-in due to A3’s out-of-bounds violation?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
Our older son was competing in the first H.S. swim meet of his career and while I was watching the meet before he was to swim, I thought of a play that will show that NFHS R5-S9-A4 takes precedence over R5-S9-A1.

B1 is Team B’s best three-point field goal shooter, but he is not one of the five best defensive players on Team B. Team B scores a field goal to cut Team A’s lead to one point. Team A inbounds the ball and B2 immediately commits a common foul against A1. Team A is in the double bonus. A1’s first free throw attempt is successful. B6, a much better defensive player than B1, replaces B1 after A1’s first free throw attempt. Coach B has B1 remain at the Scorer’s/Timer’s Table. Coach B wants B1 to replace B6 at the first opportunity to re-enter the game. A2 commits a free throw violation during A1’s second free throw attempt. Team B is awarded a designated throw-in on the end line in its backcourt because of A2 free throw violation. B2 will attempt the throw-in for Team B. Team A has 7’-00” tall A3 guard B2. The Trail official places the ball at B2’s disposal and keeps one arm raised with an open hand to signify that the clock shall remain stopped. B2 releases the ball in an attempt to pass the ball over A3. A3 blocks B2’s pass back against the wall behind B2. The ball goes from A3’s hands to the wall so quickly that the Trail official cannot do anything but to sound his whistle to stop play because of the out-of-bounds violation by A3; the Trail’s raised hand is never lowered.

From this point, the play has four different options. The game clock’s visible display can be shown in either (1) whole seconds (GC-1), or (2) tenths of a second (GC-2). The game clock controller unit has a LCD that shows the Timer how much time is on the game clock; the LCD shows the time in tenths of a second no matter which of the two types of visible displays are used.

When the game clock was stopped for B2’s common foul, the game clock with the visible display in whole seconds shows 11 seconds, and the game clock with the visible display in tenths of a second shows 11.9 seconds. The LCD display on both controllers show 00:11.9 second. We now have the four plays below:


After the Trail sounds his whistle:

Play A-1: The visible display of GC-1 shows 11 seconds and the LCD shows 11.9 seconds.

Play A-2: The visible display of GC-2 shows 11.9 seconds and the LCD shows 11.9 seconds.

Play B-1: The visible display of GC-1 shows 11 seconds and the LCD shows 11.1 seconds.

Play B-2: The visible display of GC-2 shows 11.1 seconds and the LCD shows 11.1 seconds.

Can B1 re-enter the game and replace B6 before Team B attempts its throw-in due to A3’s out-of-bounds violation?

What you described is an official NEGLECTING to signal time in on a throw in touched on the floor, and has ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with the play in question. This play falls under a Timer's error, because of the little, "The timer is AUTHORIZED to start the clock per rule if the official NEGLECTS to signal," in 5-9-1.

Once again, 5-9-1 is the rule that STARTS the clock. 5-9-2, 3 and 4 are when that SIGNAL is to be given.

Yes B1 may re-enter, and I'd leave the clock as it is, because the only options, by rule, is to take a full second off the clock for lag time, or go back to the last know time.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by blindzebra

You also have a timing error in 5.10.1.C, but it was with the official's count, so by rule it can not be fixed. Our play is no different, you have an official who DID not do the prescribed mechanic correctly, thus causing time to expire.

I read this differently - 5.10.1(C) says that you cannot correct the OFFICIAL based on the CLOCK (i.e., call a 10 second violation, give the ball to B, and reset the clock to 2 seconds).

In this case, the official was not following prescribed mechanics - where in the rule book, case book, or official's manual does it say to signal the clock to start before the throw-in is legally touched inbounds? (On an inbounds play, of course.)

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by blindzebra

Once again, 5-9-1 is the rule that STARTS the clock. 5-9-2, 3 and 4 are when that SIGNAL is to be given.

I have to disagree - 2, 3, and 4 start the clock, 1 refers to giving a signal.

Art. 1 states that the clock "shall be started when the official signals time-in." If that takes precedent over 2, 3, and 4, we have two problems.

(1) A1 is awarded 2 free throws, and the C signals the clock to start when the ball is bounced to A1 before the first shot. If article 1 takes precedent (over art. 3 in this case), then the clock should run, and both the center official and the timer are correct in having the clock run (as the clock, by rule, should start when the official says it should start).

(2) The syntax of the rule also provides a problem. If article 1 has precedent, then the timer (if the official neglects) can start the clock "as per rule." If articles 2-4 only refer to the signal, then the only rule for starting the clock is article 1 - and the only way to start the clock as per rule is on the official's signal - which was never given - so the clock can't run.