Administrative "T"

rainmaker · #1 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 07, 2004, 09:52am

Four minutes into the game, the table buzzes at a dead ball, partner (who was the R) goes to the table. A very long delay ensued. Finally, game goes forward with a technical foul. Later, he told me what happened.

Table said that a visiting player had the wrong number in the book. Player had 32 on the jersey, but was 10 in the book. Visiting coach said that the correct number had been provided, but the book-keeper had copied it down wrong. V showed their book, which did show the correct number, and apparently hadn't been altered. Partner felt (although he didn't say to the coach) that the likelihood of the home book person copying a 10 for a 32 seemed highly unlikely. He didn't ask the home book person what had been given to use for copying. He decided he couldn't unravel it and gave the T.

I have several questions. 1) If it seems obvious that the home book just plain copied it wrong, do we give the T? 2) If we were unsure how it got into the book wrong, as above, but v coach claims it was copied wrong, do we give the T? 3) Should I have interjected my self into the situation? I think I would have tried to talk him out of it, would that have been worth my interference?

mick · #2 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 07, 2004, 10:04am

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Four minutes into the game, the table buzzes at a dead ball, partner (who was the R) goes to the table. A very long delay ensued. Finally, game goes forward with a technical foul. Later, he told me what happened.

Table said that a visiting player had the wrong number in the book. Player had 32 on the jersey, but was 10 in the book. Visiting coach said that the correct number had been provided, but the book-keeper had copied it down wrong. V showed their book, which did show the correct number, and apparently hadn't been altered. Partner felt (although he didn't say to the coach) that the likelihood of the home book person copying a 10 for a 32 seemed highly unlikely. He didn't ask the home book person what had been given to use for copying. He decided he couldn't unravel it and gave the T.

I have several questions. 1) If it seems obvious that the home book just plain copied it wrong, do we give the T? 2) If we were unsure how it got into the book wrong, as above, but v coach claims it was copied wrong, do we give the T? 3) Should I have interjected my self into the situation? I think I would have tried to talk him out of it, would that have been worth my interference?

Jewel,
There's usually a reasonable explanation such as the Home scorer using the game program and not using the provided numbers.

If the numbers were provided incorrectly, the erroneous team will generally own up to it.

There was no need for you to change you partner's call if you were not asked to help.

Trust your partner? Even though he didn't tell you what was up,... even though he didn't check with the official scorer...? Hmmm....

mick

Jurassic Referee · #3 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 07, 2004, 10:08am

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Four minutes into the game, the table buzzes at a dead ball, partner (who was the R) goes to the table. A very long delay ensued. Finally, game goes forward with a technical foul. Later, he told me what happened.

Table said that a visiting player had the wrong number in the book. Player had 32 on the jersey, but was 10 in the book. Visiting coach said that the correct number had been provided, but the book-keeper had copied it down wrong. V showed their book, which did show the correct number, and apparently hadn't been altered. Partner felt (although he didn't say to the coach) that the likelihood of the home book person copying a 10 for a 32 seemed highly unlikely. He didn't ask the home book person what had been given to use for copying. He decided he couldn't unravel it and gave the T.

I have several questions. 1) If it seems obvious that the home book just plain copied it wrong, do we give the T? 2) If we were unsure how it got into the book wrong, as above, but v coach claims it was copied wrong, do we give the T? 3) Should I have interjected my self into the situation? I think I would have tried to talk him out of it, would that have been worth my interference?

1) No
2) No
3) Depends on how well you know your partner.

You can't issue a "T" to a team if they supplied the right numbers to the scorer in a timely fashion. If there's any doubt in my mind, then I'm keeping away from the "T". In this case, you have conflicting stories, and there's no real compelling reason to believe one side over the other. The only facts that you have are (1)the official book with the wrong number written into it and(2) a book supplied by the visitors with a different number in it. I'd just get the coaches together and tell them that I don't have enough info to be 100% sure in either case, so we're just gonna put the right # in the book and play ball.

LarryS · #4 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 07, 2004, 10:34am

While I agree you should not assess a T because someone had a brain hickup...we have the coaches sign the official book after everything has been copied. This gives the coach an opportunity to catch such mistakes.

Now given that, would you assess a T? Coach reviewed the names, numbers and starters and "verified" they were correct in the book.

mick · #5 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 07, 2004, 10:41am

Quote:

Originally posted by LarryS
...we have the coaches sign the official book after everything has been copied. This gives the coach an opportunity to catch such mistakes.

It doesn't happen enough in my area to have such a local protocol.
mick

SamIAm · #6 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 07, 2004, 10:47am

How did the official scorer know which player had the wrong number?

Back In The Saddle · #7 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 07, 2004, 11:08am

Quote:

Originally posted by SamIAm
How did the official scorer know which player had the wrong number?

Typically it starts with "white 10 block" and then the scorekeeper can't find 10. From there it's a matter of matching up jersies and the book or asking the other scorer.

DJ · #8 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 07, 2004, 12:01pm

It is sad to say it but after working in one gym over a period of time and having number errors always in the favor of the home team at critical times in the game that I am convinced that the scorer was a "crook." Could never prove it but pretty soon you decide that it is not a coincidence. He is no longer the scorer and funny how the problem has gone away.

stripes · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 07, 2004, 12:06pm

I have gotten into the habit of having a coach from each team initial the official scorebook under his team's players to signify that he has checkedc the book and that everything is right. If there is a problem after that, I direct all questions/problems from the head coach to the coach who signed the book. It is his problem at that point, not mine.

rainmaker · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 07, 2004, 12:09pm

Quote:

Originally posted by DJ
It is sad to say it but after working in one gym over a period of time and having number errors always in the favor of the home team at critical times in the game that I am convinced that the scorer was a "crook." Could never prove it but pretty soon you decide that it is not a coincidence. He is no longer the scorer and funny how the problem has gone away.

Interesting!!

In answer to another post, it came up because the girl was checking in and the book couldn't find the number. So the player pointed to her name, and book person then saw that the numbers were wrong.

In volleyball some refs will check the numbers in the book, one ref looks at the book and states the numbers out loud to the other ref who is looking at the players and confirming that such a number is there. That would be an obvious preventive move, but it seems a little cumbersome. I haven't really done enough varsity yet to judge how often this kind of thing happens. Is it problem enough to merit this amount of attention?

rainmaker · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 07, 2004, 12:11pm

stripes, I like your sig!

"Let me see...this is a tough decision you're giving me here. Get my a$$ kicked or collect $200. Hmm....what do ya think? I could use a good a$$ kicking, I'll be very honest with you. Nah, I think I'll just go with the $200."

-Vincent Laguardia Gambini

mick · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 07, 2004, 12:13pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

In volleyball some refs will check the numbers in the book, one ref looks at the book and states the numbers out loud to the other ref who is looking at the players and confirming that such a number is there. That would be an obvious preventive move, but it seems a little cumbersome.

From what I understand, checking those numbers is the hardest part of their game.
mick

Robmoz · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 07, 2004, 12:37pm

When I pre-game with the table personnel, I remind them to match numbers of players coming into the game to those listed in the book. The few times I have had a problem with a numbering issue it was easily diffused the way JR put it;

"...The only facts that you have are (1)the official book with the wrong number written into it and(2) a book supplied by the visitors with a different number in it. I'd just get the coaches together and tell them that I don't have enough info to be 100% sure in either case, so we're just gonna put the right # in the book and play ball.

This has worked just fine in every instance. I don't try to look for a conspiracy theory for such things.

SamIAm · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 07, 2004, 12:44pm

Thanks BITS, but what I really wanted to know was, how did the scorer in that game know who was incorrect? Did they go through the process you described or did the scorer already know who had the wrong number. If so, how?

rainmaker · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 07, 2004, 12:53pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

Quote:

Originally posted by SamIAm
How did the official scorer know which player had the wrong number?

Typically it starts with "white 10 block" and then the scorekeeper can't find 10. From there it's a matter of matching up jersies and the book or asking the other scorer.

SamIAm replied:
Thanks BITS, but what I really wanted to know was, how did the scorer in that game know who was incorrect? Did they go through the process you described or did the scorer already know who had the wrong number. If so, how?

The number that was on the player's jersey wasn't in the book. It wasn't that two girls had mixed up their jerseys. The player who was checking was listed in the book with a different number from what was on the jersey, and the number on the jersey wasn't in the book anywhere.