Should it count?

[Ref in PA]

This happened last Friday and was brought up in our association meeting on Saturday.

B1 fouls A1 during a rebound. A is in the bonus. The R called the foul and goes to report. As he is reporting the table notifies him of a descrepancy in the score. The R blows his whistle and turns to his partners and verbally tells them to wait a moment. In the mean time the players have lined up for the 1 and 1 free throw. As the R is conferring with the table, he hears a whistle blow behind him and turns to see the ball going through the basket. What had happened is that the lead administered the FT and while A1 was in the shooting motion (just prior to release), the Center blew his whistle, knowing that the R was still at the table.

This was a prime example of failing to communicate effectively - even though communication was attempted.

The Ref on the floor called his crew together to determine exactly what had happened and when the whistle was blown. After gathering the facts, the R ruled that the FT counts, because the shooting motion has started. Even though the R wanted time to be out (while the issue was resolved), the lead made the ball live by administering the FT attempt. The scoring table issue was resolved and play resumed with the second shot at the foul line.

When I heard the play, I think the crew made the correct decision on the court. Others in our chapter felt that the FT should be disallowed because the R had called time-out to correct a scoring table issue and therefore should not have taken place. When play was to be resumed, A1 would shoot the first shot of a 1 and 1.

I am interested in your thoughts on this. Did the crew get it right?

[IREFU2]

Sounds like the ball was dead when the R went to the table. Also sounds like a correctable error.

[Wearin' Stripes]

Common sense = I am not going to disallow a free throw because the crew made a bondhead mistake, especially since the ball was to remain dead until made available for the subsequent free throw and there was no way for Team B to inbound it quickly and do something.

Huddle, count the free throw, fix the score, say you're sorry and administer the back half of the bonus.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Ref in PA
I am interested in your thoughts on this. Did the crew get it right?

Situation 3 in this year's interp is a similar play (FT administered while another official is trying to get a sub in for a DQ'd player). Ruling: FT counts.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by IREFU2
Sounds like the ball was dead when the R went to the table. Also sounds like a correctable error.

it was made live when the lead administered the ball...the fact that the R was at the table doesn't make the ball dead....what is correctable about it?

[FrankHtown]

I guess it's fortunate the free throw was made, and so the players had to line up for the second free throw. What would have happened if the free throw was missed, and one of the crew had his/her back to the play while talking to the table??

Don't you think the free throw would have been re-taken?

[IREFU2]

I was just thinking that since the R blew the whistle that its was dead, but communication is the big issue here. The correctable was just a speculation on my part, sorry.

[ronny mulkey]

Two of the officials made the ball live and the throw should count if the throw is shot. However, I think that you have one of the 2 administering officials realizing the R is not ready and blows the play dead before the f. throw is shot.

That makes this play altogether different than Bob's interp. play.

[cmathews]

Originally posted by FrankHtown
I guess it's fortunate the free throw was made, and so the players had to line up for the second free throw. What would have happened if the free throw was missed, and one of the crew had his/her back to the play while talking to the table??

Don't you think the free throw would have been re-taken?

No the throw should not have been retaken, it would be just like any other free throw...it is no different than an official losing focus for a minute during the game while listening to a coach, or anything else..unfortunate yes...correctable or a dead ball, I really don't think so...

[cmathews]

Originally posted by IREFU2
I was just thinking that since the R blew the whistle that its was dead, but communication is the big issue here. The correctable was just a speculation on my part, sorry.

IREFU2, I agree communication is the issue, but there is really nothing that is correctable here, the free throw is merrited, taken by the correct player, at the correct basket, there has been no eroneous counting or cancelling of a score. With that in mind none of it fits the correctable error situations...so play on....and hope that the half time talk or next pregame is much stronger LOL

[IREFU2]

I retract the correctable part! Bad assumption on my behalf.

[ChuckElias]

I thought that there was an NCAA bulletin last year that told us the FT would not count. But I just went to look for it and couldn't find the bulletin. Am I making that up, Bob?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
I thought that there was an NCAA bulletin last year that told us the FT would not count. But I just went to look for it and couldn't find the bulletin. Am I making that up, Bob?

Why would you make up the fact that you "just went to look for and couldn't find" the bulletin?

In any event, the NCAA ruling on the same play as the NFHS Interp 3 is different -- in NCAA, redo the FT.

[ronny mulkey]

One of the administering officials blew this play dead BEFORE the shot was released. In this play, the officials did make the ball live by giving the shooter the ball, but the C recognized the R was not ready and killed it before the shot was taken. I don't see this as being different as on any f. throw, once the ball is at the disposal of a f. thrower any official's whistle will kill that play if it comes before the release.

That did not happen in than the Fed interp or the NCAA interp. in which neither of the officials caught the R not ready. They made the ball live and shots were taken.

but, please re-read this play because it clearly has the C killing this play BEFORE the shot.

[joseph2493]

Originally posted by ronny mulkey
One of the administering officials blew this play dead BEFORE the shot was released. In this play, the officials did make the ball live by giving the shooter the ball, but the C recognized the R was not ready and killed it before the shot was taken. I don't see this as being different as on any f. throw, once the ball is at the disposal of a f. thrower any official's whistle will kill that play if it comes before the release.

That did not happen in than the Fed interp or the NCAA interp. in which neither of the officials caught the R not ready. They made the ball live and shots were taken.

but, please re-read this play because it clearly has the C killing this play BEFORE the shot.

__________________________________________________ _________

The player was in the act of shooting, the play says just prior to releasing the ball.

There has to be something to make the ball go dead (not just the officials whistle) even we have to have a reason to blow a live ball dead.

Is the player gaining an advantage by counting the bucket?
It could go both ways; some will say "you awarded the bucket", thus giving the advantage to the offensive player, others will say that the offensive player had to make a shot with a whistle in his/her ear thus giving the initial advantage to the defense.