No actually BZ you would be totally wrong. But that has never stopped you before telling everyone what I should think or feel. I do not believe in an eye for an eye in any of my personal values. I just understand what might make a person explode and how I personally can avoid that kind of behavior coming back to me when I am not at all prepared. But keep thinking that, it will add to the conversation if you assume what my core values are based on a conversation we are having about a fight at a sporting event.

Peace

Hey hey hey

Let's not have another race-bashing thread....I still remember the fallout from the last one. We almost never recovered from it.

I can understand a lot of things, but that does not make them right, or justified. From your first post and I quote, " I don't blame the players one bit." You have repeatedly said it was justified, so how else are we supposed to judge your personal values?

This is not a race bashing thread. I just made an analogy who I am and who I am talking with. I am not in the same age group as many and I am surely not of the same racial background as many. And the people that are in probably the same age group as those here but have a different pigmentation do not seem to take this attitude that Artest was wrong or unjustified in his behavior. I have had extensive conversations with people outside of this board and even had someone over to Thanksgiving dinner that was from another country. If you think what I say here is bad, you should have heard the Thanksgiving conversation of some of the people there.

It is clear to me the reasons many disagree and the way people disagree with what I have to say. Take it for what it is worth, but it is not much different than conversations I have had over the years with people of different backgrounds and different social-economic status. Because of what I am and what my background is I have always known how different the values of those individuals based on their backgrounds. And at the heart of this particular issue is not different if you ask me.

Peace

One of these days you will learn BZ.
 

I never said it was justified, I said I understood. Not everything in this world is black or white when it comes to what is right and what is wrong.

I do not care how you judge my personal values. I was not asking for your approval in what I think or why I think the way I do. Judge them how you like. It is your God you have to answer to and I will have to answer to my God as well. That is the only person that can really judge me as far as I am concerned.

Peace

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
A man has the right to be treated with dignity. Just because you are a basketball player and you make a lot of money, does not absolve them from being treated with dignity.

<B>
Oh please... how many officials haven't been been verbally abused by some idiot in the stands? Give me a break about this crap that basketball players with money get treated with less dignity than the rest of us. For 99.9% of the time they are worshipped and given free passes on just about everything. This isn't some "respect" issue... it's a drunk idiot in the stands and a player on the floor with a temper problem that he has never been able to control.
</B>

If this was any other situation, Artest behavior would have been expected and understandable.

<B>
Huh? You can name one (let alone any) situations where it's acceptable to go willy-nilly thrashing into a crowd because you got a little random liquid splashed on you?
</B>

But for some reason because they are professional basketball players, we expect them to behave differently than any other part of society.
<B>
No way, they get more free passes than most of the rest of society.
</B>

I am just surprised this has not happen more often than it did the other week.
<B>

So many games, so few morons like Artest or Vernon Maxwell. Such a pity.
</B>

If Artest would have seriously injured the individual, I bet any fan would think twice about throwing things at players during a basketball game.
<B>
I think most sane individuals already refrain from throwing things. The fans involved were idiots and Artest is an idiot. Whether or not Artest injured anyone or not isn't going to cure the spectating world of idiots. There are always plenty of idiots to go around.
</B>

I guess the players are slaves and gladiators that deserve any type of treatment and the masters are suppose to do whatever they like because they pay money. :rolleyes:
<B>
Pretty well paid slaves and gladiators.(your words not mine). Pretty well treated slaves and gladiators 99.9% of the time. There are proper ways to address being treated poorly and marching into the stands is not on the list.

On another note, the original post reminded me of a game I played in once at a penitentiary. My junior college coach took our team to the pen back in 1983 to play a team of inmates. A few inmates in the stands were heating up coins with lighters and throwing them at us. Dang those left a nasty welt! I guarantee you that it never crossed my mind even once to go up into the stands.:eek:
</B>

Z

Just curious, but are military or civil service? I worked for the Army for 19 years (civil service) and lived in Heidelberg, Germany for 8 years (1976-1979 & 1983-1988) and loved it. Even went to France quite a few times and told them that Padgett really does love the French.:D

whether you are white, black or red, it's wrong to throw anything on the playing field.

whether you are white black or red, it's wrong to go into the stands to address a player in an uncivilized manner.

BTW, hey Rut, is a loud of crap one that everyone can hear?

FWIW--My Take
 

I know of no one on this thread... or anywhere for that matter that has ever said the fans were justified in what they did. They were drunk idiots who did something really stupid. The fans were wrong, and hopefully will be charged.

Credit should go to almost all fans not directly involved in brawl, who did not "riot" but moved out and let situation difuse quickly.

Now that is out of the way, can we stop the justifying how the player reacted?

I, and you, are wronged every day of our lives, from the dude cutting us off on the freeway to the jerk down the hall that steals my ideas and passes them off the our boss as his own. It is a fact of life, you can not escape it. However the rules of civilized society says you can not just haul off and hit whoever has wronged you. It is just not acceptable, and in fact illegal. That is what Artest did, an illegal act. Punching another person in non-self defense is illegal. (The self defense argument does not stand up in any way, as he was in no danger whatsoever, surrounded by a quick reacting security force)

And this whole "disrespect" argument is just absurd. Do we live in a land of thugs and gang-bangers. It is clear if you don't respect yourself, than any cross look will be looked at as "disrespect" and worthy of a violent reaction. People disrespect me all the time, but guess what, I don't hit them. I have a little respect for myself, so I am not reliant on that macho caveman attitude.

Bottom line, fan way out of line, and should, and apperantly will be charged. Artest more out of line by pummelling wrong guy, and should, and hopefully will be charged as well. Local prosecutor says all charges will be misdemeanor, except fan who threw chair who faces a felony.

FYI- latest from the Motor City, Pacers players have declined to come up and answer questions about brawl, extradition is likely. I hope it happens, even multi-millionaires shouldn't have the right to thumb their noses at the law.

Re: FWIW--My Take
 

Why is it that people keep insisting on bring up issues that are not at issue? This is not about someone cutting you off in traffic? You saw cars in the Palace?

This is not about someone stepping on your nice new Jordans. This is not about someone just calling you a name or not saying excuse me. I realize as officials we tend to take situations and put spins on it that have nothing to do with the original issue sometimes, but this is just ridiculous. This is not about gang-bangers and their life style. For all I know the only gang-bangers were the fans in the stands. That is the behavior I saw exhibited, not at all from the players. Artest was provoked at least.

Who is thumbing their nose at the law? If anyone was doing that, it was the many people at the game that thought their behavior was OK when not only were they not involved in the fight, but the fight was not even in their part of the stadium.

There is a difference in someone being disrespected and people being expected to be treated with dignity. When someone is treated as less than a human being, who can tell how they will react. Everyone has a breaking point. That does not mean they can and should cross that line when they reach it, but I can fully understand when certain things are said and done people will react. I have more of a problem with the actions of Steven Jackson in this fight than I do anyone else. Artest went after a person who he felt threw something at him and then backed off when he confronted that person after awhile. Artest was even attacked by the clown that started the whole incident and has been making the rounds on TV talking about how he did not do it or throw anything. He was clearly on tape, but I have not heard anyone come here and say this clown is a convicted felon and has a rap sheet as long as my arm. But all I have heard is "Artest has a rap song and he is the problem because of it." It just goes to show what I am saying. There is this plantation mentality in sports that the slaves are supposed to take any type of abuse and never react to it. Because they make money does not mean they should not be treated like human beings. If this was at a bar I would expect the same reaction. That does not mean it would be right, but I would not be surprised and neither would most people if you have ever been in a bar at any point of your life.

So it's not ok, but it's understandable. I guess I can understand that. I just disagree. I personally -- my own opinion, and obviously you disagree (and that's ok, too) -- think that it's not understandable to kick the crap out of somebody for throwing a beverage on you.

Everything I've read or heard on TV or radio has condemned the fans actions. I don't think "what about the fans" is a relevant question. Everybody knows that throwing beer on them was wrong. But I don't think talking about the fans' actions has any bearing on Artest's actions in this case.

[/b]
I agree that nobody is beyond getting the crap kicked out of them -- if they deserve it. If a guy punches you without provocation, or if you are placed in physical danger, then you know what? I am in favor of beating the bejeezus out of the guy. Give him a reason to think twice before doing it again. I have no problem with that whatsoever.

BUT --

There is no freaking way a person deserves to get assaulted for throwing a drink. That's not physical danger and it's not enough of a physical assault to justify a drastic reaction. It just isn't. If you honestly believe that a woman deserves to get beat up for throwing a drink in a guy's face, then you are simply wrong. She may deserve some form of physical retaliation, throw a drink back at her, push her away from you, physically restrain her. But she clearly and obviously does not deserve to be beaten.

I hope that eventually the people who live where you're from will realize that we no longer live in the 13th century.

shhhh...you're ruining the show...here, have some of this and be quiet...

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/4...in_popcorn.jpg

For what it is worth, I thought that the point jbduke was making was that people - in this case his students - carry stereotypes with them. His students had more sympathy for the violinist because of stereotypes they carried about that violinist's values, and perhaps race, compared to their stereotypes about Black athletes.

I would hope that all of us would be honest in confronting our own stereotypes. Even Rut. Respectfully, Rut, you are not allowing for your own fallibility when you say: "It is clear to me the reasons many disagree" with you. You also say: "Because of what I am and what my background is I have always known how different the values of those individuals based on their backgrounds." Is it so clear? Have you really always known? How? You don't know my race, or my age or my background. And if you knew those things, you still wouldn't necessarily know me. You'd have more information with which to make assumptions -- some of which may turn out to be true -- but you wouldn't *know*.

Most of us who are officials both (a) are confident in themselves and (b) recognize their own limitations. I think some of you are full of it ... and some of you think I am full of it. And we're probably all right at least some of the time. But we keep coming back to these messages boards because we can learn. We can do better and, more importantly, we can be better. I learn from everyone who participates in these threads and I hope this community continues its lively and engaging interaction, including the humor that comes from many of you (like Dan_ref's post above).

As Rut so often says, Peace.