Count your blessings.. be glad that you don't ref overseas-- Artest would be a choir-boy over there, apperantly:

(I thought we, the US, was the center of all bad things in the world... maybe not)

From today's (11-29-04) Detroit News:

Overseas fighting

wilder than in NBA

Though the American sporting public was shocked and disgusted by the fight between players and fans at The Palace, those who have played basketball overseas say they have seen much worse.

Cavaliers guard Jeff McInnis said he spent a season in Greece that he will never forget. He said fans threw so many objects at players during games that teams had to sit in a courtside dugout, similar to what baseball teams occupy.

"I saw a fan die at a game," McInnis said. "The fans were fighting, and this guy got trampled and had a heart attack and died. In those games overseas, fans would throw things and threaten you. Fans would heat coins with a lighter and then throw it at you."

Another Cavaliers guard, Sasha Pavlovic, said the events at The Palace were commonplace during games in his home country of Serbia-Montenegro.

"Every security guard in my country carries a machine gun because something always happens during every big game in my country," he said.

I am an American living overseas in Europe (Germany), and I still think Artest is an A#$$$%%. I just wish it was me in the stands he came at! He should have been kicked out of the NBA last year!

Germany and other European Countries in general have a much better appreciation for the game of basketball than we do who take the game for granted. Example: 04 Olympics!

JMO

FYI---
 

FYI, my title line was sarcastic--- Arest is a punk...

And it is comforting to know the problems we face with violence and imature behavior are not unique to Basketball... or even these "violent" United States... but merely the human condition.

As to quality of ball in US vs. Europe... haven't been over there lately, can't comment.

A man has the right to be treated with dignity. Just because you are a basketball player and you make a lot of money, does not absolve them from being treated with dignity. If this was any other situation, Artest behavior would have been expected and understandable. But for some reason because they are professional basketball players, we expect them to behave differently than any other part of society. I am just surprised this has not happen more often than it did the other week.

If Artest would have seriously injured the individual, I bet any fan would think twice about throwing things at players during a basketball game. I guess the players are slaves and gladiators that deserve any type of treatment and the masters are suppose to do whatever they like because they pay money. :rolleyes:

Peace

Rut - with all due respect (and I mean that literally), what a bunch of crap.

Mark,

That a way to foster civilized discourse. Don't respond directly and thoughtfully to a person's ideas, just tell him that his ideas are garbage.

Rut, here are my two cents.
---------------------------------------
Last night I went to the symphony. The first-chair violinist was really, really stinking it up through the first two-thirds of the concert. I was in the lobby of the concert hall during the second intermission when I noticed a man having a spirited discussion with his wife over how the aforementioned violinist was so bad that he was ruining the whole evening for the patron. He was clearly drunk, as exhibited by his red face and loud, boisterous demeanor.

Near the end of the concert, I happened to spy the drunkard in the audience, sitting only a few rows from the orchestra pit. Just after I noticed the man, he stood up, began booing loudly, and sloshed the contents of a champagne glass onto to the object of his disgust, the violinist. Upon feeling the spiritous shower, the violinist sprang from his seat in the pit, then clumsily hurdled the two rows between him and his assailant. When he reached the stunned patron, he (thirty-ish) put the fifty-ish man in a headlock and pounded on his face for three strokes before dropping him, his body collapsing onto the lap of his mortified wife seated adjacently.

Witnesses sitting in the immediate vicinity of the incident said that the wife of the man was heard to apologize to the musician as he dusted himself off and returned to the orchestra pit.

-------------------------
I told this story to a class of 12th grade government students today, more than a week after the Artest incident. I was not at all amazed at how much more sympathetic they were to the violinist in this story than they were toward Artest when we talked about that a week ago. I'll leave it to the individual to decide where the relevant differences lie; I know where they lie for my students.

Gee, great story. However, I think that the relevant differences to the actual Artest situation really lies in the fact that that the violinist didn't go into the audience and beat the crap out of the violinist's wife or some other innocent bystander- like Artest did. I wonder how sympathetic your kids would have been if the violinist hadda done that, instead of getting the actual assailant.

You can't tell me what to do. You're not the boss of me. NYAH, NYAH, NYAH!!!

How's that for civilized discourse?

The thing that amazes me is that they were sympathetic at all to the violinist. I thought the point of your tale was to show Rut that Artest's behavior would not be acceptable, even in a different setting (contrary to his explicit claim).

You want us to conclude that it's ok for a concert violinist to vault into the audience and pummel a drunk concert-goer?!?! :eek:

How about this story? Girl in a bar is told by a male patron that her fashion sense stinks. She's deeply insulted (or perhaps merely drunk). She throws her drink in the guy's face. The guy then beats the girl. How sympathetic is that guy?

Have we reached the point in our society where getting wet gives one a license to commit bodily injury? Unbelievable.

I have refrained from making comments about the Pacers-Pistons incident of a few weeks ago, but I think that it is time for me to say something.

Nobody was correct in the "riot" that occured at the end of the game: Not the players and not the fans.'

I know that many of you have heard me state that officiating is a profession masquerading as a avocation and that statement is still correct. BUT, sports in all of its shapes and forms is NOT important in the scheme of things on this small Class M planet whose society is ranked as a Category 0 (Zero).

We play sports because games are a fun pastime. Please do not tell me that whatever supposed contributions to society made by sports can even compare to the contributions made to society by police officers, teachers, college professors, doctors, dentists, and nurses to name.

We have become a society where good manners and respect for our fellow humans has become non-existent. I too have favorite sports teams: Liberty Leopards (my H.S. alma mater in Youngstown, Ohio), Youngstown State Unviersity (my college alma mater) and The Ohio State University are a few of my favorite teams, BUT I did not riot in the streets each of the four times that YSU won the NCAA Div. I-AA football championship, nor did I go berserk if an official failed to call what I thought was pass interference committed against by beloved YSU Penquins.

I recall the story that Bill Russell has told when a father wanted his son to grow up like him. Bill asked him: What is wrong with his son growing up like his father?

We can't have a civilized politcal campaign where the issues that will affect our country's future are discussed. Instead, we have political operatives that use 30 second sound bites to put out mis-information about political opponenets that have nothing to do with the issues.

What happened in Detroit that night is just another example of both fans and athletes (including coaches) have no self control.

I am sorry if I am rambling here, but my better half and I work hard to teach our sons about life and how to live their lives and then we have athletes and fans act like real idiots on national television no less.

MTD, Sr.

No Mark. With all due respect, I did not post my comments for your approval. So you can think it is a loud of crap all you want, but I am not the only one that feels that way.

Remember Mark, I am not of your age group. I am not of your racial background. I do not share your values. So you disagreeing with me is like someone that was outraged over Super Bowl Halftime show. It might add some spice to the discussion, but it was not meant to find agreement.

As I stated before in the previous post, if more players went up in the stands and kicked the behinds of fans that threw things at them, they might think twice the next time. ;)

Peace

Not at all Chuck. I think what jdDuke is saying is that you cannot treat anybody anyway and not expect they are always going to turn the other cheek. I have read for the past week all this talk about how Artest is a bad guy and he should have never done what he did. But what about the fans and their behavior? What about the actions of individuals that think that because they pay money to go to a game, they can act in any manner, no matter how disrespectful they are. I know if I go to a store and the clerk does not do something I do not like. I do not throw something at them. And I sure would expect some kind of reaction from someone in that case. Maybe they would lose their job, but I still would treat them with dignity and common respect. Whether that would be cursing at them or calling them a name to embarrass them. I would not do that because for the most part they would be doing their job. If they are not doing their job, I do not go back to that store or I complain to a manager or headquarters of that job.


"Nobody is beyond an a@@ whoopin."---Chris Rock.

If the girl did not want her *** beat, she should not have thrown her drink at anybody. Where I am from, it would not be the guy that beats her behind, it would be the women closest to that man at that time (girlfriend, wife, and friend).

I know I would not have much sympathy for a person that threw a drink and in return got their behind kicked as a result. But that is me. I do know this, I know not to call a woman out of her name in a public place and expect no one is going to confront me. I do know that very well. I might have to deal with her boyfriend or man closest to her.

Peace

Since when does one's age, skin color, hair color, eye color, or from what country one's grandparents came, have to do would good manners and civil behavior.

MTD, Sr.

It will do you no good Mark.

In an ideal world we'd all "turn the other cheek". Rut appears to follow an "eye for an eye" even though this is more of an eye for a baby toe, since getting hit with liquid is not equal to beating someone.;)

Are you seriously asking? You cannot be seriously asking that silly question?

Peace

No actually BZ you would be totally wrong. But that has never stopped you before telling everyone what I should think or feel. I do not believe in an eye for an eye in any of my personal values. I just understand what might make a person explode and how I personally can avoid that kind of behavior coming back to me when I am not at all prepared. But keep thinking that, it will add to the conversation if you assume what my core values are based on a conversation we are having about a fight at a sporting event.

Peace

Hey hey hey

Let's not have another race-bashing thread....I still remember the fallout from the last one. We almost never recovered from it.

I can understand a lot of things, but that does not make them right, or justified. From your first post and I quote, " I don't blame the players one bit." You have repeatedly said it was justified, so how else are we supposed to judge your personal values?

This is not a race bashing thread. I just made an analogy who I am and who I am talking with. I am not in the same age group as many and I am surely not of the same racial background as many. And the people that are in probably the same age group as those here but have a different pigmentation do not seem to take this attitude that Artest was wrong or unjustified in his behavior. I have had extensive conversations with people outside of this board and even had someone over to Thanksgiving dinner that was from another country. If you think what I say here is bad, you should have heard the Thanksgiving conversation of some of the people there.

It is clear to me the reasons many disagree and the way people disagree with what I have to say. Take it for what it is worth, but it is not much different than conversations I have had over the years with people of different backgrounds and different social-economic status. Because of what I am and what my background is I have always known how different the values of those individuals based on their backgrounds. And at the heart of this particular issue is not different if you ask me.

Peace

One of these days you will learn BZ.
 

I never said it was justified, I said I understood. Not everything in this world is black or white when it comes to what is right and what is wrong.

I do not care how you judge my personal values. I was not asking for your approval in what I think or why I think the way I do. Judge them how you like. It is your God you have to answer to and I will have to answer to my God as well. That is the only person that can really judge me as far as I am concerned.

Peace

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
A man has the right to be treated with dignity. Just because you are a basketball player and you make a lot of money, does not absolve them from being treated with dignity.

<B>
Oh please... how many officials haven't been been verbally abused by some idiot in the stands? Give me a break about this crap that basketball players with money get treated with less dignity than the rest of us. For 99.9% of the time they are worshipped and given free passes on just about everything. This isn't some "respect" issue... it's a drunk idiot in the stands and a player on the floor with a temper problem that he has never been able to control.
</B>

If this was any other situation, Artest behavior would have been expected and understandable.

<B>
Huh? You can name one (let alone any) situations where it's acceptable to go willy-nilly thrashing into a crowd because you got a little random liquid splashed on you?
</B>

But for some reason because they are professional basketball players, we expect them to behave differently than any other part of society.
<B>
No way, they get more free passes than most of the rest of society.
</B>

I am just surprised this has not happen more often than it did the other week.
<B>

So many games, so few morons like Artest or Vernon Maxwell. Such a pity.
</B>

If Artest would have seriously injured the individual, I bet any fan would think twice about throwing things at players during a basketball game.
<B>
I think most sane individuals already refrain from throwing things. The fans involved were idiots and Artest is an idiot. Whether or not Artest injured anyone or not isn't going to cure the spectating world of idiots. There are always plenty of idiots to go around.
</B>

I guess the players are slaves and gladiators that deserve any type of treatment and the masters are suppose to do whatever they like because they pay money. :rolleyes:
<B>
Pretty well paid slaves and gladiators.(your words not mine). Pretty well treated slaves and gladiators 99.9% of the time. There are proper ways to address being treated poorly and marching into the stands is not on the list.

On another note, the original post reminded me of a game I played in once at a penitentiary. My junior college coach took our team to the pen back in 1983 to play a team of inmates. A few inmates in the stands were heating up coins with lighters and throwing them at us. Dang those left a nasty welt! I guarantee you that it never crossed my mind even once to go up into the stands.:eek:
</B>

Z

Just curious, but are military or civil service? I worked for the Army for 19 years (civil service) and lived in Heidelberg, Germany for 8 years (1976-1979 & 1983-1988) and loved it. Even went to France quite a few times and told them that Padgett really does love the French.:D

whether you are white, black or red, it's wrong to throw anything on the playing field.

whether you are white black or red, it's wrong to go into the stands to address a player in an uncivilized manner.

BTW, hey Rut, is a loud of crap one that everyone can hear?

FWIW--My Take
 

I know of no one on this thread... or anywhere for that matter that has ever said the fans were justified in what they did. They were drunk idiots who did something really stupid. The fans were wrong, and hopefully will be charged.

Credit should go to almost all fans not directly involved in brawl, who did not "riot" but moved out and let situation difuse quickly.

Now that is out of the way, can we stop the justifying how the player reacted?

I, and you, are wronged every day of our lives, from the dude cutting us off on the freeway to the jerk down the hall that steals my ideas and passes them off the our boss as his own. It is a fact of life, you can not escape it. However the rules of civilized society says you can not just haul off and hit whoever has wronged you. It is just not acceptable, and in fact illegal. That is what Artest did, an illegal act. Punching another person in non-self defense is illegal. (The self defense argument does not stand up in any way, as he was in no danger whatsoever, surrounded by a quick reacting security force)

And this whole "disrespect" argument is just absurd. Do we live in a land of thugs and gang-bangers. It is clear if you don't respect yourself, than any cross look will be looked at as "disrespect" and worthy of a violent reaction. People disrespect me all the time, but guess what, I don't hit them. I have a little respect for myself, so I am not reliant on that macho caveman attitude.

Bottom line, fan way out of line, and should, and apperantly will be charged. Artest more out of line by pummelling wrong guy, and should, and hopefully will be charged as well. Local prosecutor says all charges will be misdemeanor, except fan who threw chair who faces a felony.

FYI- latest from the Motor City, Pacers players have declined to come up and answer questions about brawl, extradition is likely. I hope it happens, even multi-millionaires shouldn't have the right to thumb their noses at the law.

Re: FWIW--My Take
 

Why is it that people keep insisting on bring up issues that are not at issue? This is not about someone cutting you off in traffic? You saw cars in the Palace?

This is not about someone stepping on your nice new Jordans. This is not about someone just calling you a name or not saying excuse me. I realize as officials we tend to take situations and put spins on it that have nothing to do with the original issue sometimes, but this is just ridiculous. This is not about gang-bangers and their life style. For all I know the only gang-bangers were the fans in the stands. That is the behavior I saw exhibited, not at all from the players. Artest was provoked at least.

Who is thumbing their nose at the law? If anyone was doing that, it was the many people at the game that thought their behavior was OK when not only were they not involved in the fight, but the fight was not even in their part of the stadium.

There is a difference in someone being disrespected and people being expected to be treated with dignity. When someone is treated as less than a human being, who can tell how they will react. Everyone has a breaking point. That does not mean they can and should cross that line when they reach it, but I can fully understand when certain things are said and done people will react. I have more of a problem with the actions of Steven Jackson in this fight than I do anyone else. Artest went after a person who he felt threw something at him and then backed off when he confronted that person after awhile. Artest was even attacked by the clown that started the whole incident and has been making the rounds on TV talking about how he did not do it or throw anything. He was clearly on tape, but I have not heard anyone come here and say this clown is a convicted felon and has a rap sheet as long as my arm. But all I have heard is "Artest has a rap song and he is the problem because of it." It just goes to show what I am saying. There is this plantation mentality in sports that the slaves are supposed to take any type of abuse and never react to it. Because they make money does not mean they should not be treated like human beings. If this was at a bar I would expect the same reaction. That does not mean it would be right, but I would not be surprised and neither would most people if you have ever been in a bar at any point of your life.

So it's not ok, but it's understandable. I guess I can understand that. I just disagree. I personally -- my own opinion, and obviously you disagree (and that's ok, too) -- think that it's not understandable to kick the crap out of somebody for throwing a beverage on you.

Everything I've read or heard on TV or radio has condemned the fans actions. I don't think "what about the fans" is a relevant question. Everybody knows that throwing beer on them was wrong. But I don't think talking about the fans' actions has any bearing on Artest's actions in this case.

[/b]
I agree that nobody is beyond getting the crap kicked out of them -- if they deserve it. If a guy punches you without provocation, or if you are placed in physical danger, then you know what? I am in favor of beating the bejeezus out of the guy. Give him a reason to think twice before doing it again. I have no problem with that whatsoever.

BUT --

There is no freaking way a person deserves to get assaulted for throwing a drink. That's not physical danger and it's not enough of a physical assault to justify a drastic reaction. It just isn't. If you honestly believe that a woman deserves to get beat up for throwing a drink in a guy's face, then you are simply wrong. She may deserve some form of physical retaliation, throw a drink back at her, push her away from you, physically restrain her. But she clearly and obviously does not deserve to be beaten.

I hope that eventually the people who live where you're from will realize that we no longer live in the 13th century.

shhhh...you're ruining the show...here, have some of this and be quiet...

http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/4...in_popcorn.jpg

For what it is worth, I thought that the point jbduke was making was that people - in this case his students - carry stereotypes with them. His students had more sympathy for the violinist because of stereotypes they carried about that violinist's values, and perhaps race, compared to their stereotypes about Black athletes.

I would hope that all of us would be honest in confronting our own stereotypes. Even Rut. Respectfully, Rut, you are not allowing for your own fallibility when you say: "It is clear to me the reasons many disagree" with you. You also say: "Because of what I am and what my background is I have always known how different the values of those individuals based on their backgrounds." Is it so clear? Have you really always known? How? You don't know my race, or my age or my background. And if you knew those things, you still wouldn't necessarily know me. You'd have more information with which to make assumptions -- some of which may turn out to be true -- but you wouldn't *know*.

Most of us who are officials both (a) are confident in themselves and (b) recognize their own limitations. I think some of you are full of it ... and some of you think I am full of it. And we're probably all right at least some of the time. But we keep coming back to these messages boards because we can learn. We can do better and, more importantly, we can be better. I learn from everyone who participates in these threads and I hope this community continues its lively and engaging interaction, including the humor that comes from many of you (like Dan_ref's post above).

As Rut so often says, Peace.