Intentional foul or T?

[Back In The Saddle]

9th grade boys game. On a throw-in before I have handed the ball to the thrower, A2 is pushing B2 repeatedly. I'm not sure what he was trying to accomplish, either antagonizing the opponent (which he did) or just distract him or get him off balance. A had been playing cheap, rough ball all game and I wasn't going to let this one go uncalled.

I called an intentional foul. Now I am wondering if it should have been a T since it was dead ball?

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
9th grade boys game. On a throw-in before I have handed the ball to the thrower, A2 is pushing B2 repeatedly. I'm not sure what he was trying to accomplish, either antagonizing the opponent (which he did) or just distract him or get him off balance. A had been playing cheap, rough ball all game and I wasn't going to let this one go uncalled.

I called an intentional foul. Now I am wondering if it should have been a T since it was dead ball?

10-3 Intentionally or fragrantly contacting an opponent when the ball is dead and such contact is not a personal foul.

T IMO

[Jurassic Referee]

Yup, correct call because the ball was dead should have been a "T". End result was almost the same anyway. Two shots and the ball back- only they got the throw-in at the POI instead of at center.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by thumpferee
[/B]

10-3 Intentionally or fragrantly contacting an opponent when the ball is dead and such contact is not a personal foul.

[/B][/QUOTE]Don't be surprised if you hear from the coach that that call stinks.

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
End result was almost the same anyway.

Almost - but not exactly. Apparently, the NF feels intentional contact during a dead ball deserves more punishment than intentional contact during a live ball. This is evidenced by the fact that the technical counts both toward that player's five fouls for elimination and toward that player's two technical fouls for elimination.

I guess I would have to agree since a large percentage of intentional fouls during a live ball are made merely to stop the clock, while the majority of intentional fouls during a dead ball are designed to actually impart some physical force upon an opponent.

[mdray]

your wondering is correct, I believe. It can't be "just" an intentional foul; since the ball was dead, that contact foul would be a technical foul...(now that technical *could* be intentional or flagrant, although your description doesn't sound like a flagrant) ...calling an intentional forced B2 to shoot the foul shots; calling a T, then anyone from B could have shot the foul shots; your sitch is a good example I'll use to remind myself to slow down at the point of the call...

[Back In The Saddle]

In the end, the differences in penalty did not matter in this game. The coach, who had been a major PITA all game (chirping loudly on every call, reminding us that he's been coaching for 20 years, already earned his first T) declared that if we didn't change the call, he was going to take his team and leave. The opposing team and fans applauded their departure.

[thumpferee]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

10-3 Intentionally or fragrantly contacting an opponent when the ball is dead and such contact is not a personal foul.

[/B]

Don't be surprised if you hear from the coach that that call stinks. [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks for pointing out my one letter mistype, JR. I'll try to be more precise when responding with you around in da future. UH OH, is da a word JR?

[Mregor]

If I am adminstering a throw in and I see 2 players excessively working for position before I hand the ball to the thrower, I'll stop and go to them and tell them to clean it up rather than call a Tech.

Mregor

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by thumpferee
UH OH, is da a word JR?

Yes, when used such as "da Bears".

[refnrev]

I don't see any reason to warn him. He'd been playing cheap all night. But a dead ball is a T not intentional. As for the coach threatening to pull his team -- that's his choice, not yours. He will also probably face a very unhappy AD when he gets off the court.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by refnrev
But a dead ball is a T not intentional.

By rule, the correct call here is an intentional technical foul. Rules references are 4-19-1NOTE & 4-19-3.

Welcome to the forum, refnrev.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by refnrev
But a dead ball is a T not intentional.

Man, I hate it when people respond so definitively and are wrong.
refnrev,
Please listen and discuss for a while on the forum before you start providing such answers.
There are people here, like JR, who really know the rules terminology well and will provide excellent, instructive answers to these kind of questions, if you give them a chance.

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Man, I hate it when people respond so definitively and are wrong.
refnrev,
Please listen and discuss for a while on the forum before you start providing such answers.
There are people here, like JR, who really know the rules terminology well and will provide excellent, instructive answers to these kind of questions, if you give them a chance.

Nev, you really know how to make a guy feel welcome. Not.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle

Nev, you really know how to make a guy feel welcome. Not.

WELCOME, refnrev!!!!!!!!!!!

My only wish is that he not be so darn matter of fact right away. His terminology is imprecise. He needs to know that, and he needs to tone it down right out of the gate.

And I did say Please!