2 shots or 1

[JB]

A1 is fouled while in the act of shooting. The foul is so near the expiration of the 35 second clock that the timer cannot stop the clock and the horn goes off. After the horn, A1 continues his habitual motion, and of course the ball goes in. Important: The ball was still in A1's hand when the horn went off.

Do you count the basket and shoot one or wave it off and shoot two?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by JB
A1 is fouled while in the act of shooting. The foul is so near the expiration of the 35 second clock that the timer cannot stop the clock and the horn goes off. After the horn, A1 continues his habitual motion, and of course the ball goes in. Important: The ball was still in A1's hand when the horn went off.

Do you count the basket and shoot one or wave it off and shoot two?

Chuck:

I need your help on this one. Since the ball was still in A1's hand when the shot clock buzzer sounded the ball becomes dead at that point and A1 will shoot two or three free throws depending upon the type of field goal he was attempting. I would think that this ruling would be the same for both men's and women's.

MTD, Sr.

[blindzebra]

Shooting foul and dead ball on shot clock violation, no basket.

[ChuckElias]

Mark has asked for my help twice now on this question. I was waiting to answer b/c I was hoping somebody else would jump in with an authoritative answer. I've emailed a D1 official I know well (who is also VERY good with rules), but he hasn't gotten back to me yet.

The problem is that I see logic on both sides of this question.

The easier solution is to wave off the basket and award two shots. The ball was clearly in the shooter's hand when the shot clock horn sounded, so there can be no try.

But the question really is: should the shot clock have sounded?

If the timer (or the Precision Time system) had stopped the clock when the whistle sounded, the shot clock would not have expired and we would obviously allow A1 to complete the throwing motion.

We've seen NCAA officials in big games go to the monitor at the end of a period to determine when the clock should have stopped on a whistle, and then they put that time back on the clock. And I'm wondering if we use that logic here. Do we allow the basket b/c the clock should have stopped prior to the sounding of the shot clock horn? Is this comparable to correcting an obvious timing mistake? (There's no "lag time" interp in NCAA, remember.)

The honest answer is that I just don't know. I want to say count the basket and give one shot, but I don't know if that's supported by rule. I'll post again when I get the answer from my buddy.

In the meantime, maybe some of the other college guys and gals -- Bob, Brad, rocky, Dan, Barb, devdog, I'm sure I've left some out -- can weigh in and give an informed opinion.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Mark has asked for my help twice now on this question. I was waiting to answer b/c I was hoping somebody else would jump in with an authoritative answer. I've emailed a D1 official I know well (who is also VERY good with rules), but he hasn't gotten back to me yet.

The problem is that I see logic on both sides of this question.

The easier solution is to wave off the basket and award two shots. The ball was clearly in the shooter's hand when the shot clock horn sounded, so there can be no try.

But the question really is: should the shot clock have sounded?

If the timer (or the Precision Time system) had stopped the clock when the whistle sounded, the shot clock would not have expired and we would obviously allow A1 to complete the throwing motion.

We've seen NCAA officials in big games go to the monitor at the end of a period to determine when the clock should have stopped on a whistle, and then they put that time back on the clock. And I'm wondering if we use that logic here. Do we allow the basket b/c the clock should have stopped prior to the sounding of the shot clock horn? Is this comparable to correcting an obvious timing mistake? (There's no "lag time" interp in NCAA, remember.)

The honest answer is that I just don't know. I want to say count the basket and give one shot, but I don't know if that's supported by rule. I'll post again when I get the answer from my buddy.

In the meantime, maybe some of the other college guys and gals -- Bob, Brad, rocky, Dan, Barb, devdog, I'm sure I've left some out -- can weigh in and give an informed opinion.

Chuck:

The question we probably should be asking is this: Because the NCAA does not allow for lag time (NFHS does) with the game clock, therefore does the NCAA not allow lag time with the shot clock? I would say that the logical (of course that does not mean the Rules Committee does things logically) answer to this question is yes.

If we use "yes" to my question in the preceeding paragraph, then I would have to change my anwer in my orignal post because the shot clock should have stopped at the same time as the game clock and A1 would have been allowed to finish his act of shooting, and if the attempt was successful, count the basket and shoot one free throw.

Thanks for your reply.

MTD, Sr.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Mark has asked for my help twice now on this question. I was waiting to answer b/c I was hoping somebody else would jump in with an authoritative answer. I've emailed a D1 official I know well (who is also VERY good with rules), but he hasn't gotten back to me yet.

The problem is that I see logic on both sides of this question.

The easier solution is to wave off the basket and award two shots. The ball was clearly in the shooter's hand when the shot clock horn sounded, so there can be no try.

But the question really is: should the shot clock have sounded?

If the timer (or the Precision Time system) had stopped the clock when the whistle sounded, the shot clock would not have expired and we would obviously allow A1 to complete the throwing motion.

We've seen NCAA officials in big games go to the monitor at the end of a period to determine when the clock should have stopped on a whistle, and then they put that time back on the clock. And I'm wondering if we use that logic here. Do we allow the basket b/c the clock should have stopped prior to the sounding of the shot clock horn? Is this comparable to correcting an obvious timing mistake? (There's no "lag time" interp in NCAA, remember.)

The honest answer is that I just don't know. I want to say count the basket and give one shot, but I don't know if that's supported by rule. I'll post again when I get the answer from my buddy.

In the meantime, maybe some of the other college guys and gals -- Bob, Brad, rocky, Dan, Barb, devdog, I'm sure I've left some out -- can weigh in and give an informed opinion.

Chuck, my instinct tells me if it was this close I would probably wave off the basket if the shot clock buzzer came before the ball was released and award 2 shots.

I'm not sure I'm right by rule but I'm sure I could make it work.

Time to make a few phone calls.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.
The question we probably should be asking is this: Because the NCAA does not allow for lag time (NFHS does) with the game clock, therefore does the NCAA not allow lag time with the shot clock? I would say that the logical (of course that does not mean the Rules Committee does things logically) answer to this question is yes.

IMHO, the situation with the shot clock should be handled the same way as if the situation had happened at the end of a period. And, 5-7-3c provides for a period to end when a foul occurs so close to the end of the period that the clock can't be stopped.

I know there's a specific FED case that doesn't count the basket and awards two throws (at the end of a period). I can't find a specific NCAA AR on this. But, I'd treat it the same way.

My mechanics manual is in the car. There's a list of shot-clock situations in it. Is this one covered?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

IMHO, the situation with the shot clock should be handled the same way as if the situation had happened at the end of a period. And, 5-7-3c provides for a period to end when a foul occurs so close to the end of the period that the clock can't be stopped.

I know there's a specific FED case that doesn't count the basket and awards two throws (at the end of a period). I can't find a specific NCAA AR on this. But, I'd treat it the same way.

My mechanics manual is in the car. There's a list of shot-clock situations in it. Is this one covered?

Bob:

My excuse is always that my brief cases (See Chuck about them.) are in the attic. You have to be more imaginative than my manuals are in my car.

MTD, Sr.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by bob jenkins

IMHO, the situation with the shot clock should be handled the same way as if the situation had happened at the end of a period. And, 5-7-3c provides for a period to end when a foul occurs so close to the end of the period that the clock can't be stopped.

I know there's a specific FED case that doesn't count the basket and awards two throws (at the end of a period). I can't find a specific NCAA AR on this. But, I'd treat it the same way.

My mechanics manual is in the car. There's a list of shot-clock situations in it. Is this one covered?

I didn't see it in the list.

[ChuckElias]

Well, my D1 buddy basically gave me the same answer I gave you: "I want to score the basket, but I don't know if that's really supported by rule." So I don't have any better information to share with you.

So, here's my best guess. In a HS game, I would wave off the shot, since (as it was pointed out by Mark) HS rules allow a period to end with the violation if the clock can't be stopped before the horn sounds.

In NCAA, I would award the basket and tell the irate coach that my whistle was definitely before the horn, so he's allowed to finish the throwing motion.

By the way, this is post 5,000 for me. Sorry it wasn't more helpful.

[rockyroad]

Chuck, NCAA Rule 2-5.5 allows us to use the courtside monitor if we think the shot clock operator failed to "properly start, STOP, or rest the shot clock"...so it's an easier sell if the gym has the monitor - go watch it, tell the coach "Foul clearly came before shot clock expired, clock should have been stopped but wasn't, basket counts"...if there's no monitor, then just whack him and toss him!

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Well, my D1 buddy basically gave me the same answer I gave you: "I want to score the basket, but I don't know if that's really supported by rule." So I don't have any better information to share with you.

So, here's my best guess. In a HS game, I would wave off the shot, since (as it was pointed out by Mark) HS rules allow a period to end with the violation if the clock can't be stopped before the horn sounds.

In NCAA, I would award the basket and tell the irate coach that my whistle was definitely before the horn, so he's allowed to finish the throwing motion.

By the way, this is post 5,000 for me. Sorry it wasn't more helpful.

Yeah, but 4,050 of them were on the Red Sox thread that went for on seventy eleven (as Dennis the Menance would say) pages. ;-)

MTD, Sr.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
Time to make a few phone calls.

One of those to Edgar? Get any calls back yet?