Two weird plays

Mark Padgett · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 20, 2004, 01:26pm

OK - I admit this really didn't happen in one of my games, but it almost happened in the NBA Sacramento - Memphis game last night. I'm looking for an interpretation under NF rules, however.

Scenario 1) A1 drives for layup. B1 commits foul in the act of A1 shooting. The ball goes straight up off A1's hand and obviously is not going into the basket. While he is still in the air, A1 bats the ball into the basket. Count the goal?

Scenario 2) Same situation except that instead of A1 batting the ball into the basket, it comes down on his shoulder and bounces into the basket while he is still in the air. Count the goal?

just another ref · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 20, 2004, 01:34pm

A very emphatic no and no.

Mark Padgett · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 20, 2004, 01:54pm

My point was to establish whether or not A1 was still considered an airborne shooter when the second contact is made with the ball - since if he is, the ball is still live. If the ball is still live, can't he score?

Scenario 3) What if the ball bounced in off B1? Is it a score? Is this the same as the shot being partially blocked and still going in?

Jurassic Referee · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 20, 2004, 02:06pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
OK - I admit this really didn't happen in one of my games, but it almost happened in the NBA Sacramento - Memphis game last night. I'm looking for an interpretation under NF rules, however.

Scenario 1) A1 drives for layup. B1 commits foul in the act of A1 shooting. The ball goes straight up off A1's hand and obviously is not going into the basket. While he is still in the air, A1 bats the ball into the basket. Count the goal?

Scenario 2) Same situation except that instead of A1 batting the ball into the basket, it comes down on his shoulder and bounces into the basket while he is still in the air. Count the goal?

The pertinent rule is NFHS4-40-4. The try ends when it is certain it will be unsuccessful. In Scenario 1, the initial try is unsuccessful as soon as A1 touched it the second time. In scenario 2, the initial try is unsuccessful as soon as it touched the shooter's shoulder.

Jurassic Referee · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 20, 2004, 02:10pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Padgett
My point was to establish whether or not A1 was still considered an airborne shooter when the second contact is made with the ball - since if he is, the ball is still live. If the ball is still live, can't he score?

Scenario 3) What if the ball bounced in off B1? Is it a score? Is this the same as the shot being partially blocked and still going in?

In this one, if the shot had a chance to go in before it hit B1, you would score the basket. If not, the ball is dead when it touches B1. Casebook play 4.40.4SitB is close.

SamIAm · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 20, 2004, 03:34pm

This issue came up before and i am still not sure. JR, I agree with everything up to the point of whether the shooter completed the try or the ball was simply knocked out of his control before he could complete the trying motion.

The example I invision is A1 taking the ball up but B1 fouling before A1 gets the ball above his head. The ball comes loose, A1 regains control and shoots it, or whacks it toward the basket and it goes in.
I can't see how the try can end before the ball is shot.
If that same ball slips out of his hand before A1 shoots it, it not considered a try.

Jurassic Referee · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 20, 2004, 03:56pm

Quote:

Originally posted by SamIAm
This issue came up before and i am still not sure. JR, I agree with everything up to the point of whether the shooter completed the try or the ball was simply knocked out of his control before he could complete the trying motion.

The example I invision is A1 taking the ball up but B1 fouling before A1 gets the ball above his head. The ball comes loose, A1 regains control and shoots it, or whacks it toward the basket and it goes in.
I can't see how the try can end before the ball is shot.
If that same ball slips out of his hand before A1 shoots it, it not considered a try.

The definition of a "try" in R4-40-2 says that the player is throwing for goal. The try, or throw, ends when it is certain that it's gonna be unsuccessful. If the player regains control after the try is unsuccessful and shoots it again or whacks it towards the basket, then this has to be a second try. The rules don't support any other conclusion.

Put it another way. You said "the ball became loose" because of the foul. Isn't that a loss of player control, by rule also? Then the player regains PC and shoots the ball--> i.e. a second try.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Nov 20th, 2004 at 04:03 PM]

SamIAm · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 20, 2004, 09:01pm

I am reading from ncaa so the wording might be different, but it says the try ends when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful. If the player doesn't get to throw the ball, how do we know if it is unsuccessful? NCAA specifically uses "throw being unsuccessful" not the try.

Deja-vu, haven't we had this same conversation? I don't remember what came of it.

bob jenkins · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Nov 20, 2004, 09:30pm

Quote:

Originally posted by SamIAm
I am reading from ncaa so the wording might be different, but it says the try ends when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful. If the player doesn't get to throw the ball, how do we know if it is unsuccessful? NCAA specifically uses "throw being unsuccessful" not the try.

Deja-vu, haven't we had this same conversation? I don't remember what came of it.

THer's also some wording to the effect that "A1 might not release the ball on a try due to the foul". It's still a "shooting foul", but it's not a try so we don't count the basket.