:eek:

Looks like he'll have lots & lots of free time to make CDs.

I'm on his side. He had beer thrown on him and was defending himself. The foul was a nothing foul and WALLACE is the one who provoked the entire thing.

It was crazy, but Artest was cool at first, trying to stay out of it and some guy had to throw beer at him.

I don't blame Artest for being mad for getting beer dumped on him, but he still has no business going into the stands and fighting. If he would have just walked away, the fan would have been ejected for life and probably arrested. Instead, Artest is now the dumbass once again.

Z

I like Artest. I hope his album goes platinum and earns more money than his salary.

Absolutely disgraceful fans. Disgraceful.

Don't go into the stands period. Nothing good can come of it. And nothing good did.



A nothing foul! Looked like a flagrant to me.

You want to talk about players going into the stands, how about fans coming onto the court? It will be interesting to see NBA's decisions about this stuff.

A flagrant? Why, because it was Artest? It was a little bump from behind. It wasn't excessive contact in a junior high game, just a good foul.

And if someone throws a beer on Artest, I would invite him to go kick the guy's a$$.

I am with Artest....You throw a beer at me and I am going after you to. Artest's foul was nothing more than a hard common foul and Wallace got bent out of shape. My question is where were Ron Garretson and Tim Donaghy to Help Tommy Nunez Jr. No, wait my question is why was Nunez Jr. in that scrum after it got out of hand. I think Detroit in general needs to look at a lot of things. The NBA will have fun in the next week sorting this mess out.

There is plenty of blame to go around. I'm sure there will be suspensions and fines for players on both teams, arrests for fans, increased security for teams and many other things. But to say that Artest was justified in going into the stands and swinging because a stupid fan dumped beer on him is just plain stupid. He was not defending himself... It wouldn't surprise me if Artest and Jackson got arrested too.

Z

That is the worst thing I have ever seen in an American sporting event.
 

Every fan that threw things and came onto the floor deserved to be knocked out.

I do not blame any of the players at all. I only blame the fans and the actions of the fans. The players were doing nothing different than any of us would have done if someone was throwing things at us. This was just a game, but if it was in a bar, we all probably would do the same thing. I know I would.

Peace

:eek:

Wow. That's all I have to say. Unbelievable.

I don't know if Artest can be blamed for going into the stands or not. You'd think he should have control of himself - but what those fans did....

Unreal. I'm in shock.

Now wait a sec... Tommy was only in the mess trying to keep artest from losing his cool. I think he did what he should have... and Tim tried to keep artest from getting off the table. And I agree that was a nothing foul... but a fun crew to watch! (At least for 47 mins)

The NBA! It's faaaaaaantastic!! :D

What's the over/under on how quickly the Bad Boy merchandise comes out again? Anybody that's surprised that something like that happened just hasn't been paying attention.

Oh, my!
 

Ugly.
Sad.

Here you are, folks- in case your kids missed it......

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/.../index?1927343

I was told as officials you get the hell out of the way and don't try to break it up. Be a witness. Get numbers for suspensions and the like.

Granted, I don't think any of us are likely to see an NBA-style brawl with NBA-size players anytime soon, but there have been instances of high school brawls.

Are we, as officials, supposed to bail? I know I'm not getting paid enough to play sheriff.

In HS and college I would say you do not get involved. At the NBA level, these guys are instructed a lot differently and their mechanics or method of action is entirely different. I would not judge everything based on what the NBA does. They get involved if they can. But remember their heath insurance and other expenses will be taken care of by the NBA.

Peace

That's fine. Like I said, I'm not likely to be in an NBA brawl anytime soon.

But just because someone is paying your medical bills doesn't mean you want to have medical bills, you know what I'm sayin'? ;)

Just as an aside, looking at the average NBA player and the average NBA official, I see quite the size and age mismatch there that can't be good for the guys in grey. I can't see how the NBA could say to its officials "We want you in there with those 22-year-old 6-8, 250 pound guys breaking it up, even though you're 5-8 and 50 years old and sell insurance in the off-season."

Full timers.
 

I understand what you are saying. But the NBA Officials are full time employees. They do that year round for the most part. They have camps they have to go to and might run camp of their own all over the country. I am sure some might have other businesses or jobs, but not likely. They can make a 6 figure income rather easily after some time in the league. And have you seen many of the NBA officials lately? They are more muscular than many of the players. I remember looking at the fight between the Washington Wizards and the Chicago Bulls. The officials that were getting in between that brawl were just as ripped if not more than the players.

Peace

Now Ed Hochuli, on the other hand - I'm sending him in if there's any trouble. :)

I thought the officials did a good job of keeping the players apart, Tommy Jr basically pushed Artest far away from Wallace. I don't really know what the other two did, but Tommy Jr was very phyiscal about getting Artest away. He did a good job, somthing we would never do in HS or NCAA game. Once Artest went into the stands there wasn't really much the officials could do at that point.

There is no excuse for going into the stands. Artest attacked a guy HOLDING a cup, he could not see who threw it, he just attacked.

Even if he knew who threw it, he is running past and over women, kids and innocent men to get to the idiot who threw it.

If a fan comes after him on the court fine, knock him out, that's self defense. Trampling and assaulting twenty innocent people to get to an idiot is NOT self defense.

Drunken, underpaid idiots and overpaid thugs do not mix.

I would and do... If I am close and have a chance I get to the one who would retaliate and get him away from the scene. Also saw one example last year in a PAC10 game where the official held the guy from behind so he wouldn't go retaliate. (Makes less paperwork to do ;))

Penalty
 

Saw today across local news station that NBA suspended Artest, O'Neal and Jackson from the Pacers and Ben Wallace for Pistons INDEFINITELY for their "involvement."

Re: That is the worst thing I have ever seen in an American sporting event.
 

You don't blame any of the players at all? You're fine with Artest and Steven Jackson going up into the stands and pounding on people who may or may not have been the ones throwing beer at them? Self defense is one thing, but going into the stands to pound on people? Come on.

Z

http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1927663

I think there should have been some punishment for the fans too, like making Detroit play their next few home games in an empty arena.

mxd,
Do you mean to punish all Detroit fans?
Do you mean to punish employees, vendors, owners, teammates and innocents?
mick

Go Pistons.

We're gonna punish everyone in the whole damn state. Everybody will be </>fined</b>! And there's gonna have to be a moat built around the court at the Palace, just like the soccer stadiums in South America.

Have you seen the films of today's South Carolina/Clemson game yet? Geeze, you go to a college football game and a pro basketball game breaks out.

Put me in this camp.

Didn't see it yet, JR.

We already have a Great Moat around 6 sides: East, East, West, South , North and North.

mick

My take: there's a brick wall separating players & fans.

A fan runs on the field of play...all bets are off, he deserves whatever he gets.

A player runs into the stands to beat a fan...he deserves whatever he gets. Including "indefinite suspensions" and subsequent civil suits.

Anybody out there willing to trade a black eye for the chance to sue the sh!t out of a 20 year old multimillionaire?

I agree. If I can separate them early, before it goes crazy, I'll do it. I did it earlier this year in a football game. I simply grabbed one of the two players involved and pushed him as far away as possible. But if an all oyut brawl occurs, stand back and take numbers.

BTW, a player should NEVER EVER go into the stands. I don't care what happens. There were women and children in the area who could have been severely injured by what happened when Artest went into the stands.

I listened to the end of the game after a Semi-state football game and After the first time I saw the deplorable Detroit fans I said to my father, who was with me. Suspend every single fan for at least 2 games (including the next Pacer/Detroit matchup). The organization deserves to lose 6-7 figures of income from a couple of games, its sad for the other fans, but the lesson WILL be learned that way.

Now as for Artest, Jackson, Oneal, and Ben Wallace. When I was listening to the game I was sure that Rasheed had something to do with it, but to my surprise he acted with great restraint. IMHO Ben Wallace should be suspended for at least 15 games or the same as Artest (whichever was less). He was the originator of the initial contact, he was the instigator of the following "player" debockle, including about 2 situations where it seemed to be under control; when he continued to try and get to Artest just laying on the table, and again when it was almost calm he threw a towel at artest.

Now as for Artest, I think all the way up until getting belted in the face with ice he was guilty only of common foul #4, he showed much restraint, until obviously leaving the confines of the court. This clearly stepped over the line, but if you were pushed violently in the throat, then after only backing up, get cursed at more and see this Ben Wallace coming after you, then moments later getting towel thrown in face, and somehow you are still "calm" and then a few seconds later you get belted with a cup of ice and see the guy who did it 15 feet away. I know what most would do, the problem was Artest just saw the guy with the smart-a$$ smirk who wanted to start something, and he didn't see the 15 foot tall wall that players and officials don't cross. (and that 15 foot wall should actually have consisited of some security guards, so not to be totally metaphorically) Fan on Court, FREE GAME(actually about 5 games)! So Artest jumped over that 15 foot tall wall and landed himself 15 games, add the fan he hit there 5 and the fan on the court 5 more, (if its decided they were justified, just 15)but probably a total of 25 games

I didn't really pay much attention to Jackson but he instigated some stuff on the court (2 games) and came in the defense of his fellow teammate in the stand getting choked and sucker punched, but he slugged a guy or 2 (5-10). So for jackson I say 7-12 games. Jermaine Oneal, never instigated on court stuff, never went in the stands, but he blind sided the on court guy with a slippery right jab, Fair game but still 5 games, if the guy lost a tooth 5 more (5-10).

And again Detroit's stadium and fans should certainly get a hard smack on the back side by the NBA.
Whoooo! just wanted to vent a little, preceeding was just IMHO, I've talked with Stern before and like him very much and am sure that he and his crew will come up with a somewhat righteous decision.

Um, you wouldn't maybe be from Indiana, by any chance, would you? LOL. :D

I'm in this camp, too. Or is this the same camp I was already in?

Same camp. I get the bottom bunk.

I agree with BigGref, at least on this one point. After getting shoved in the throat, instead of retaliating, Artest went and sat (laid down) on the scorer's table. His posture seemed kind of smug (laying back, relaxing, as though he'd had nothing to do with it), but at least he was uninvolved in the altercation on the floor.

Make sure JR's not in the top bunk, in case he runs out of Depends! :D

Just as officials have to hold themselves to a higher standard than players and coaches, I believe players have to hold themselves to a higher standard than fans. It's a "catch 22" that officials have been against for so many years - now the players are getting a little taste of it.

I am a baseball umpire and as our crew was exiting the field, I opened up a the gate to let us out and an angry fan pushed the gate back and it closed on my face. Yeah, I felt like going after him but I didn't. Later, our Supervisor contacted the school A.D. and the fan was prohibited from attending the rest of the games for the weekend.

This may not be an apples to apples comparison, but dealing with irrational fans comes with the territory of making millions of dollars. If you think it's not fair, then get out of sports and go sell records. Just my opinion.... yes, I am from the Detroit area.

Bad Boys
 

They are professionals and should act that way..

Re: Re: That is the worst thing I have ever seen in an American sporting event.
 

I do not blame the players at all. What the fans did is far and away the issue that started the may lay. If the fan never threw anything, no player would have felt compelled to go after them. They sell alcohol to these fools and they let them say whatever comes to mind. I understand that the fans pay money to watch games, but that does not give them the right to behave in any way shape or form because you pay some money. If that was in any other arena, you honestly believe that the person that got hit with a full cup of beer is going to just sit there while you do it?

Sorry Z, you can come up with all this morality crap and "they are professionals" BS all you like. I think if a fan has the balls to throw something at people, they deserve everything they get after that.

Even if Artest was wrong in his actions that gave the two fans no right to enter the court. That gave the fans that were not involved in any way to throw beer on players and coaches. I do not blame the players at all. NOT ONE BIT!!

Peace

It's obvious the fans started it and are wrong in this situation. But as a player, you need to control your emotions and think before you act.

Regardless if you think Artest was right or wrong for what he did, the bottom line is that the players do NOT go into the crowd regardless of the reason. Artest and the others will pay a serious price for breaking a cardinal rule. Period.

By the way, the same rule applys to officials too. Why should the standard be any different for the players.

Re: Re: Re: That is the worst thing I have ever seen in an American sporting event.
 

These idiot fans are not sectioned off in their own area you know.

Same scene happens and I'll add a wrinkle. What if on that trip over those 10 rows to this idiot, Artest runs through and steps on a 5 year old and seriously injures or KILLS this kid? There was an elderly woman on the bottom of the pile behind that bench.

Ask yourself this, what if your child, mother or grandmother was injured or killed by one of these players storming after an idiot that threw LIQUID in a plastic cup, would you still think it's okay?

Wouda, couda, shouda, but didn’t.

I agree that Artest should not have approached the fan in any way. But I understand why he did and think many others would do the same. When you throw something at anyone, be prepared for their reaction. When Artest went into the stands, he should be prepared for the reaction as well. I really have no problem with what his teammates did at all, because they were getting their teammate of a bad situation. They had every right to hit whoever was attacking them. The fans when they came onto the floor should have been prepared for the reaction the received as well.

Players should not have their space violated. Whether it is a thrown object or the presence of people threatening them directly, the players have a right to work in a place that they do not have to put up with that kind of behavior. If you really want to talk about morals and professionalism, let us address the use of alcohol at sporting events. Let us address how if that kind of behavior was in any other segment of society, they people would not be allowed to participate in the event.

Like I have always said here, you can be right and wrong at the same time. Maybe Artest will loose some games and so will his teammates. Yes the fans did not deserve being attacked. But just because you do something, does not mean someone will not react to you. In many circles the action of this fan would have brought much more than a couple of punches to his face. I blame them first because they were the spark that started the fire. And individuals that had nothing to do with the altercation continued their despicable behavior. There where children around and in the area. None of these adults took any account of that.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Re: That is the worst thing I have ever seen in an American sporting event.
 

Then I would sue the individual that started the altercation. Why are you throwing things when you were not involved in the on court fight? Why are you drinking like an idiot in public and cannot control your actions? The NBA is just as responsible and should be sued by players that have continuously have seen these events and allow them time and time again.

I am not saying the player take no responsibility. I am saying that we need to stop justifying the actions of adults that drink and say anything. As far as I am concerned, the women that got hit in the face should take a great deal of responsibility for her noise being broken when you confront players and say things to people you would never say outside of that sporting event. I do not know about you, but I have seen some people get in the face and call a person names and usually they did not just walk away. Maybe their first reaction was not to throw a punch, but they did not just stand there and take it.

Peace

Actually a player DID start this, Ben Wallace started it. When he over-reacted to Artest's foul and clocked Artest. He then continued after Artest by throwing a towel at Artest while he lay on the scorer's table.

Let's put it in a different context. Someone is in a parking lot outside a bar and some drunken idiot throws a beer at them, they get in their car and drive through dozens of innocent people to run over the beer thrower.

Justified?

Re: Re: Re: That is the worst thing I have ever seen in an American sporting event.
 

LOL. Some of your most intelligent comments ever. LOL! Rut for NBA commissioner. LOL! Let's start letting murder defendents off the hook for self defense if the victim poured beer on them first. Good call.

The fans were idiots. Nobody is debating that. However, Artests and Jacksons actions were criminal and there is no justication for that.

Actually, the last time I went to an NBA game was about 10 years ago. Some drunken idiot behind me did spill beer on me and was swearing and being a dumbass from the opening whistle. Did I turn around and beat the heck out of him? Nope. I moved. Another option may have been to go get security to have him ejected. Even had it been intentional, spilling beer on someone is not the same as taking swings at someone which could maim or even kill.

Z

[Edited by zebraman on Nov 21st, 2004 at 04:42 PM]

I think a few people are missing the boat here. I'll try to sum it up this way...

1. Ben Wallace should have never shoved Artest
2. The fan should have never thrown a cup of beer at Artest
3. The fans behaved like the typical drunken idiots that they are

You can blame the whole altercation on the Pistons and their fans and you're probably 100% right but guess what...... that still does NOT justify Artest and his teamates going into the stands and taking matters into their own hands.

Indiana fans can blame everything on everyone else but the bottom line is the NBA dropped the axe on Artest, O'Neal and Jackson - that's atleast 50% of their scoring that will disappear for most of the regular season. Now you tell me who the idiots are....?

One other note - Why was Artest laying down on the scorer's table anyway? Doing a dumb thing like this make's you a prime taget fan abuse. Does that mean he deserved to get a beer thrown at him? Absolutely NOT. However, when you do stupids things like that you put yourself in bad situations. I think there were plenty of areas he could have went to other than where he went. Again, I'm not justifying a fan throwing an object at him but his smart a$$ personality led him to once again, make some bad choices.

[Edited by Sal Giaco on Nov 21st, 2004 at 06:20 PM]

Yeah, that is exactly what I am saying.
 

Sure that makes since. Of course. Why not?

It amazes me how people take things to the extreme to justify their point of view. :rolleyes:

Peace

Re: Yeah, that is exactly what I am saying.
 

So, you are saying KILLING an innocent bystander is okay if you get hit with liquid? Unfreakin believable. There is nothing extreme about it. You don't think it was possible in that situation for a small child to have been seriously hurt or killed by a 6'8" 230 pound person completely out of control?

FYI, the NBA does not agree. Artest just got the boot for the season and his punch happy teammates are gone for 30 and 25.;)

Re: Re: Re: Re: That is the worst thing I have ever seen in an American sporting event.
 

You can be sarcastic all you like, but I never said that you do not punish the players or not take action. But I think the actions of the players and how the league handles it are two different things. I would suggest that what the league has done (suspensions) was too far and they are not taking action to prevent this type of behavior.

So was the action of the fans. The throwing of the beer is assault. I say take them all to court over this issue.

Actually, the last time I went to an NBA game was about 10 years ago. Some drunken idiot behind me did spill beer on me and was swearing and being a dumbass from the opening whistle. Did I turn around and beat the heck out of him? Nope. I moved.[/B][/QUOTE]

What if that clown threw beer or any drink at your kids face? Do you really think you would just move on? And the issue is not about someone spilling a beer and being obnoxious. We are talking about someone throwing beer, a chair and other objects in the direction of players. Then coming onto the court and confronting players.

I think you need to read my comments again. I did not say any action was justified. I said I understand. I think we were talking about blame here and how things got out of hand. And if you do not want someone to attack you, you do not throw things at them. If you do not want people to react to you, you do not say certain things to them. If you do not want to get hurt, try everything you can to keep yourself out of a situation in which you play no personal role.

Now the NBA took action, but I would sue the pants of the NBA and any other organization that allows fans to drink beer and act out of hand. I do not drink beer or much alcohol at all. I do not understand the need to sell beer and to drink beer at sporting events. If you cannot enjoy the game without getting drunk, I really will never understand that. You cannot sell beer at college sporting events for the most part. Fans enjoy themselves there. The NBA and these other leagues want to have a family atmosphere, yet they allow drinking and other less than responsible behavior to continue at games.

This was not the first time something like this happen, it will not be the last. I think all pro players have a right to be protected from this kind of fan behavior. And I think the NBA Player's Association has a legitimate beef with the NBA and so does MLB to file grievances with their respective leagues on how the fans have confronted players.

Peace

Re: Re: Yeah, that is exactly what I am saying.
 

Yeah, that is what I said. So much you totally missed the sarcasm in my post. I really hope you are not that emotional you can understand sarcasm? Basically what you said was asinine and is the reason I say, "Sure!"

Did the swarms of fans take into account the children or older individuals around? I find it funny you want to put this on Artest and not the thousands of people that were standing around.

The funny thing is that is not the issue. There were no children hurt. There was an elderly person in part of the fight, but I do not know if that was as a result of the actual fight in the stands with players. There were swarms of people that interjected themselves into an issue that totally took place on the court.

I do not know that the NBA agrees or disagrees with my point of view. The NBA is doing what is essentially what a PR move is. They are not doing what is in the best interest of the players that they have to protect from being seen as "justifying" the behavior of their players. But in all other incidences when alcohol is involved, laws and rules in many places have made policies for behavior. The NBA and these leagues have allowed drinking to go on and do not take the actions as is typical in other arenas as it relates to conduct of customers. If this was a bar, Artest and O'Neal would have an issue with the bar that did not provide the proper security at their job or of other customers.

Peace

Re: Re: Re: Yeah, that is exactly what I am saying.
 

We are talking liquid in plastic cups, popcorn in paper containers. This is not a gun, a knife, a pipe, a bat,a fist, or batteries, it was LIQUID.

The fans that are caught on tape should go to jail, and so should the players.

Like I said in my first post, if a fan is on the court fine it's an actual threat of attack and fine, knock them out, that is self defense.

Going into the stands trampling over INNOCENT people, escalating a situation that endangered even more people is not self defense, it is a crime.

I'd hate to think that you are so emotional that you'd condone stupid and dangerous behavior as justified.

Murder?
 

No sh!t McFly!! You went to school to learn that logic you keep using?

Not sure I agree. The action of certain players can be taken into account based on their role in the incident.

Well that is what happen in other incidents.


Oh PUULEEESSS!!! Artest did not trample over anyone to get to that guy that threw the beer. He went right at the guy and knew who he wanted to retaliate against. It might be a crime to hit the guy. But that is for a judge and a prosecutor to determine. No one here is going to make that decision ultimately. And you do not know the laws in the state of Michigan and how those laws will be enforced. Charges could be dropped and they might decide to go after the fans that participated. The NBA cannot suspend fans, but the law can take actions against people that violated the law. I am sure there will be more than fans that will get prosecuted here.

I did not condone or justify anyone's behavior. I am saying that if you do not want to start a fire, you do not play with matches. You are trying to make this a moral issue based on what is essentially a lie. Then you try to compare a situation that did not take place to justify you point of view. Murder? Trampling? Involuntary Homicide? It is very silly to me when you try to misrepresent the actions of all parties. No one was killed or shot anyone with a gun. There were no fans trampled by Artest. There were fans that interjected themselves on an on-court event. Now that did happen. There were fans that were not involved in the fight between Artest and that beer throwing fan and started hitting players that did not hit them. I did see O'Neal protecting himself when they went after Artest. Now the camera did not show everything and I was not there in person to know for sure. I do know that if someone was hitting me from behind in the back of the head, I am sure I would not just sit there and take it.

Peace

For all you clowns blaming the fans for this mess:

What Ron Artest lost: $5,200,000 (his 04/05 NBA salary).

What the guy who threw the beer lost: $8 (beer's expensive at sports venues).

Artest showed us all how tough he is. Don't disrespect Ron Artest. No sir, do not test Ron Artest.

Teaching us all that lesson only cost him $5,200,000. So far.

Re: Murder?
 

This is my last reply because you obviously DON'T get it.

There was no reason to go in the stands NONE, ZIP, NADA. Nothing that was done justifies what happened. No way Artest saw who threw the beer, the tape shows him looking up and toward the court, AND the guy he attacked was still HOLDING a cup.

You like to say I'm going to extremes, but you have yet to disprove that there were innocent fans between the court and where the fighting took place.And large out of control men were going over, through, and past them to attack who they THOUGHT threw beer at them.

That is no different then idiots shooting at each other past innocent people. The fact that nobody got seriously hurt, does not lessen the risk that two groups of idiots put them under, because they cannot control themselves.

Neither side was justified in their actions, and all of them should be punished for what happened. That is NOT PR it's called JUSTICE.

Oh, my!!!!
 

I don't think that year suspension will fly.
at least I hop it doesn't.
Seems like cruel and unusual punishment to me.
mick

Artest is getting a long vacation. Just as well, you can't play away games when you're in jail.

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: That is the worst thing I have ever seen in an American sporting event.
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge

We are talking about someone throwing beer, a chair and other objects in the direction of players. Then coming onto the court and confronting players.
<B>
Some beer hit Artest. The chair happened after Artest was in the stands taking swings. Get your facts straight.
</B>
I think you need to read my comments again. I did not say any action was justified. I said I understand. I think we were talking about blame here and how things got out of hand. And if you do not want someone to attack you, you do not throw things at them. If you do not want people to react to you, you do not say certain things to them. If you do not want to get hurt, try everything you can to keep yourself out of a situation in which you play no personal role.
<B>
Your quote was, "<I>. I do not blame the players at all. NOT ONE BIT!!"</I> That's moronic. Again, nobody here defended the fans. Everyone thinks the fans are idiots. But you can't justify the players behavior for that. That's part of what is wrong with society....blame it on something else. "Yeah, your honor, I hit him.. but he threw beer on me." It just doesn't wash for anyone with a logical thought in their head. I'm not the slightest bit surprised that Artest is done for the year. If that's all he gets, he'll be lucky. Assault charges are being considered (and not for the guy who tossed a beer).
</B>

Z

A really bad comparison if you ask me.
 

I think what you do not get is I do not care what your personal feeling is on this. This is not a debate to change your mind. This is a debate to show you that others are not on the same page with you.

Now you are a mind reader? I guess you had a personal conversation with Artest and talked to the others around the situation? I forget you are all knowing and the moral police. Remind me not to ever listen to anything you have to say because you seem to think your point of view is the only one important here.

Comparing murder to a fist fight is a bit much don't you think?

I am going to assume you were not there. I am going to assume you have not talked to anyone there. I am going to assume that you are just speculating here to try to prove a point. If you have to speculate to make your point, your point of view is really wrong. I am not saying what is right and what is wrong. I am stating what the situation is. People should not kill other people or hurt anyone, but they do. I know what I should or should not do to provoke people to react to me or things I say. It does not give anyone the "right" to react to me in a negative way, but they will if I push the right buttons. I know if I talk about someone's wife or children in a certain way, I know they might come at me physically. It does not matter if their actions are right or wrong, but it does matter what they do if I am not careful.

Let me say this. I know the places I can avoid so that does not happen to me. Of course nothing is promised and anything can happen, but I sure know of places I can avoid where people that shoot at people regularly hang out.

It is still PR. The action of the NBA has nothing to do with the law. As I stated before, I am a Pistons fan and I am not a fan of Artest. I think he acts like a clown most of the time. But I do know better than to throw something at the man that is much bigger and taller than I am or hang around those kinds of people. I also know not to drink so much in public where I cannot control all my emotions or act in a way that people would want to hurt me based on things I do. This is one of the reasons I do not go to bars on a regular basis or places that have built in trouble as a result.

Peace

I did not realize I was really asking for your point of view on this?
 

I consider your point of view just as dumb and stupid. Not because you have a different opinion than I do, but you are trying to make it seem that everyone should always act in the best possible way when in their mind they are threatened. I guess if someone threw beer on his family members, you expect him to just walk away if that happens too?

This is not about honor or how big anyone is. This is about what I would have done and expected most people to do. This is not even about morals. Because when we are provoked, morals can go completely out the window under the right circumstances. Just because I say I do not blame him, does not mean I think he should not be prosecuted or take any responsibility for his actions. That includes Artest's teammates as well. But I do understand and do not blame them for defending themselves regardless of how far they had to go to accomplish that goal.

You are not my moral compass. You are not the person I look to for guidance on these issues. Stop trying to tell me what your opinion is when it does not matter. I was just giving my point of view; I did not and am not attacking the way you feel. The fans that participated got what they deserve. They were not killed or hurt seriously from all accounts. They were hit for being stupid. I never asked you to like it. ;)

Peace

Check out this poll from ESPN:


------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
3) Who is most to blame for Friday night's brawl in Detroit?

46.6% Detroit fans

38.9% Ron Artest

9.2% Ben Wallace

4.7% Detroit security

0.6% Referees

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

If there is blame to be shared then why not give some to the referees.

I don't know which is worse, the fact that some people out there blame the referees for this or that ESPN actually added them as an option to this poll!

Re: Oh, my!!!!
 

I'll bet you a nickel that Stern cleared the suspensions with the players union before he announced it.

Kinda hard to market your buisiness to the kids if the parents fear their $300 entertainment investment is gonna end up in a brawl.

Re: Re: Oh, my!!!!
 

Well Stern did discuss this with the leader of the Player's Union before he had his press conference. But the union is going to fight it still. So is the Indiana Pacers organization. So the NBAPA is not in agreement with the Commissioner and his decision. I guess time will tell what might happen.

Peace

Re: I did not realize I was really asking for your point of view on this?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JRutledge
I consider your point of view just as dumb and stupid. Not because you have a different opinion than I do, but you are trying to make it seem that everyone should always act in the best possible way when in their mind they are threatened. I guess if someone threw beer on his family members, you expect him to just walk away if that happens too?

<b>
I would expect him to act in a way that is not physical violence. There are many ways to react. Getting wet with beer does not equal getting pounded with fists. He was never in any danger. Once he went into the stands, everyone was in danger.
</b>

This is not about honor or how big anyone is. This is about what I would have done and expected most people to do.

<b>
Well we most certainly run in different circles because I don't know anyone who thinks that getting wet gives someone a right to start throwing haymakers.
</b>

This is not even about morals. Because when we are provoked, morals can go completely out the window under the right circumstances. Just because I say I do not blame him, does not mean I think he should not be prosecuted or take any responsibility for his actions. That includes Artest's teammates as well. But I do understand and do not blame them for defending themselves regardless of how far they had to go to accomplish that goal.

<b>
They were never threatened until they went into the stands. If Artest felt threatened by the fans, why would he lay down on the scorer's table all relaxed. Suddenly some beer splashes him and now he feels threatened. Give me a break. It's not like people were coming down and threatening them. Somebody tossed some beer from 12 rows up. And I suppose Steven Jackson was fighting for his life too. Oh yeah, that's right... we're in a society where some people think it's acceptable to start swinging if you get "disrespected."
</b>

You are not my moral compass. You are not the person I look to for guidance on these issues. Stop trying to tell me what your opinion is when it does not matter.
<b>
This isn't about morals. It's about the law and common sense. The NBA has a strict guideline that players are never to go into the stands for any reason. Ron Artest is FAR, FAR from being the first player or coach to ever get hit with beer from an idiot fan. He's just the first idiot to start a freakin' riot over it.
This is a discussion board. People give opinions. Take your own advice. Usually the more moronic points of view are the ones that get the most defensive.
</b>
I was just giving my point of view; I did not and am not attacking the way you feel. The fans that participated got what they deserve. They were not killed or hurt seriously from all accounts. They were hit for being stupid. I never asked you to like it. ;)
<b>
Getting wet and getting pounded do not equate. Self defense from liquid refreshments has never been tried by any lawyer that I've heard of. Everyone involved deserves punishment. The beer throwers deserve punishment, but certainly not permanent impairment or death from blows. The players who left the floor deserve punishment. The fans who came onto the floor deserve punishment. I know someone personally who died from a punch. A punch is in a totally different realm from tossing beer. You are right in that it is lucky that nobody got killed or hurt seriously. In that case, Artest would not just be in jeopardy of assault, but possibly murder.</b>

Z

Re: Re: I did not realize I was really asking for your point of view on this?
 

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zebraman

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge I consider your point of view just as dumb and stupid. Not because you have a different opinion than I do, but you are trying to make it seem that everyone should always act in the best possible way when in their mind they are threatened. I guess if someone threw beer on his family members, you expect him to just walk away if that happens too? <b> I would expect him to act in a way that is not physical violence. There are many ways to react. Getting wet with beer does not equal getting pounded with fists. He was never in any danger. Once he went into the stands, everyone was in danger. </b> This is not about honor or how big anyone is. This is about what I would have done and expected most people to do. <b> Well we most certainly run in different circles because I don't know anyone who thinks that getting wet gives someone a right to start throwing haymakers. </b> This is not even about morals. Because when we are provoked, morals can go completely out the window under the right circumstances. Just because I say I do not blame him, does not mean I think he should not be prosecuted or take any responsibility for his actions. That includes Artest's teammates as well. But I do understand and do not blame them for defending themselves regardless of how far they had to go to accomplish that goal. <b> They were never threatened until they went into the stands. If Artest felt threatened by the fans, why would he lay down on the scorer's table all relaxed. Suddenly some beer splashes him and now he feels threatened. Give me a break. It's not like people were coming down and threatening them. Somebody tossed some beer from 12 rows up. And I suppose Steven Jackson was fighting for his life too. Oh yeah, that's right... we're in a society where some people think it's acceptable to start swinging if you get "disrespected." </b> You are not my moral compass. You are not the person I look to for guidance on these issues. Stop trying to tell me what your opinion is when it does not matter. <b> This isn't about morals. It's about the law and common sense. The NBA has a strict guideline that players are never to go into the stands for any reason. Ron Artest is FAR, FAR from being the first player or coach to ever get hit with beer from an idiot fan. He's just the first idiot to start a freakin' riot over it. This is a discussion board. People give opinions. Take your own advice. Usually the more moronic points of view are the ones that get the most defensive. </b> I was just giving my point of view; I did not and am not attacking the way you feel. The fans that participated got what they deserve. They were not killed or hurt seriously from all accounts. They were hit for being stupid. I never asked you to like it. ;) <b> Getting wet and getting pounded do not equate. Self defense from liquid refreshments has never been tried by any lawyer that I've heard of. Everyone involved deserves punishment. The beer throwers deserve punishment, but certainly not permanent impairment or death from blows. The players who left the floor deserve punishment. The fans who came onto the floor deserve punishment. I know someone personally who died from a punch. A punch is in a totally different realm from tossing beer. You are right in that it is lucky that nobody got killed or hurt seriously. In that case, Artest would not just be in jeopardy of assault, but possibly murder.</b> Z

Of course in 66 replies we are the only 2 that disagree with his stance.;)

I'm not surprised to see the league adopt a "you cant go into the stands, period" kind of approach. As a league and as a business, you had to know they would do that.

But I would be surprised if they didnt take action in the off season to alter the layout of the floor seats, move the chairs back, or dictate some ajustments to the proximity of the fans to the players.

Plus perhaps secretly "suggest" that the arenas increase security presence in the fourth quarter under 5 minutes in rivalry games.

I was surprised Wallace only got 6. I was thinking 10 to 15. I wasnt surprised to see Artest get a season. I think if he hadn't have had a history he would have gotten 30 like Jackson.

I also thought the league might take a more neutral (maybe balanced is a better work, meaning slam both the Pistons and the Pacers) approach and suspend everyone involved for 10 to 20 plus Artest longer, but the punishment here clearly fell on the Pacers (what was it, Artest for the season, Jackson 30 and ONeal 25 for the Pacers and Wallace 6 and a few others 1 each for the Pistons).

Clark

I didnt see the game prior to the foul and ensuing situation.

What is the general feeling from the officials here about whether any of this is attributed to poor preventative officiating?

Anything a newbie like me can learn from a game like this?

Did you see things prior to the incident that when you watched you thought was done wrong and could lead to problems? Was this a game that from an official's stand point was getting out of control?

Clark

Take it or leave it.
 

So what is your point Z?

I never advocated violence or condoned it. I just said I understood the player’s actions. I have not any sympathy for the position of the fans that threw things. The original altercation was on the floor, not with the fans. If no one threw anything, Artest does not come into the stands. It is that simple. Now if someone died (which they did not) or got hurt seriously (which they did not) then we can talk about that. All I have said from the beginning is I understood why they acted the way they did. Maybe people throwing something at you would never provoke you to take action, but it would for me or several other people I know. Especially if someone threw something at me or folks I know. And I am not talking about thugs or people that like to fight or constantly get in trouble with the law either. I know if I threw something at someone, I would expect them to react with physical violence against me. That is why I would not throw anything at someone. Maybe you would take someone dumping liquid on you (no matter what that liquid might be), but I would not without doing something about it. If it led to a physical altercation, it just might lead to that. This is all I am saying. I am not asking you to agree or disagree. I am just sharing my personal point of view and I do not care if you or others agree with that point of view. I did not say it to have you agree with my point of view. I said what I said just to make a personal point. Take it or leave it.

Peace

Getting into this late, but all ARTEST did was get up in the stands and get in some guys face!!!! Before that no punches were thrown until he was covered with yet another cold beverage, which then led to his partner in crime to just throw a hay maker and knock his head off...at that point artest still has not thrown any punches even though he was covered by fans and was getting punched in the back of the head!!! i can see him getting suspended some games for going into the stands that is a NO NO, but costing him the season just because of his prior record was not appropriate..... the others did more than him, until it reached the floor and idiot fans got in his face again on his way out then i think he was protecting himself and punched his way out!!!!! if the fans get on the floor they are fair game, just like when artest got in the stands he was and they just jumped him!!! TOO HARSH OF PENALTY IN MY OPINION

The only thing Wallace did was shove Artest and throw a towel at him. He never went into the crowd and never punched anyone. In fact, if head case Artest didn't go into the crowd, Wallace would of probably got a one game suspension. I was shocked that he got 6 games... for what??? Can anyone explain what Wallace did to deserve a 6 game suspension???

Piston fans should be suspended as well.
 

Good monring to you all...

Just a little venting about the situation that happened in Auburn Hills on Firday night. The whole situation was a disgrace to the NBA, the Pacers, and the the Pistons. The NBA is going to ban Atrest for the entire season, and Jackson and O'Neal for 30 & 25 games respectfully, which was done by the commish, to "Send a Message", the Detroit fans should be suspended for a minimum of 5 games. That's right they should have to play the next 5 games with out any fans in the stands. That would also send message to the fans that they too crossed the line of what is acceptable behavior. What the fans did at that game was totally uncalled for. The fans landed a lot more punches and some of them got what they deserved (the 2 guys that got decked when they were on the floor.)

Just the opinions of a non Pacer fan from Indiana.

I was waiting for this:

http://www.detnews.com/2004/pistons/.../d01-11818.htm

It was the official's fault!

Lah me! Why aren't I surprised?

Artest was shoved in the face by a follow player but didn't react. Yet, when he has a drink thrown on him, he goes into the stands after a fan. That's bull$hit. And I don't know what video you saw but I saw him throwing punches at the fan he went after. He nails the kid in the black t-shirt and blue jeans. The only thing that stopped him from pummeling him was the fact that he wast grabbed from behind, and stopped.

Artest was a time bomb. He was just a matter of time before he went off. Should his past record be considered in his punishment? Damn right it should. Ever heard of three strikes? He's bad for the game of basketball and I'm glad he's gone.

KUDOS TO STERN!!!!!!

[Edited by BktBallRef on Nov 22nd, 2004 at 10:41 AM]

I saw the CEO of the Pistons on ESPN this morning and he said something to effect of: "This is terrible. Nothing like this has ever happened in our league before and we have to make sure it doesn't happen again."

But that is such a load of manure. It happened a lot, and only about 30-35 years ago. Anybody read Earl Strom's book? He talks about melees between fans and players on a regular basis. Heck, he talks about melees between fans and officials.

How about we adjust the proximity of the fans by putting a big cage around the playing court and benches? You know, like they used to do in every arena b/c the fans threw stuff and got into fights with the players? The way it was when basketball players were routinely called "cagers" for exactly that reason.

Never happened before. Please.

I actually was flipping channels and saw the whole situation unfold. It was the longest portion of an NBA game I've watched in ten years, too bad it was like a trainwreck, I didn't want to watch, but couldn't turn away. My thoughts actually go to the foul. If you watch the foul that Wallace was upset about from the rear view (which hasn't been shown a lot on the highlights) Artest goes after the ball with one hand and his other hand grabs Wallace's shoulder pretty hard. I thought the officials would have been more than correct in calling the foul flagrant, but again, as we always say, I wasn't there. It looked to me like a little more than a "hard foul". That being said, the rest of the situation was horrible. the fans and players are both to blame. I'm glad the NBA is taking a hard stance on this incident. Hopefully some good can come out of this ugly incident and sportsmanship will get some press and it will help the rest of us out.

No Hockey
 

I think some of the Hockey fans decided to go to a basketball game. They reacted just like a hockey crowd. Beer is thrown all the time at those contest as well as other things.

I think the NBA needs to rethink fan access to the game. Lots of valid points points have been made in this discussion.

Wallace deserves blame for his actions and the penalty should be weighted because those actions served to further incite the fan reaction.

Artest and teammates deserve blame to reacting to fans.

Detroit fans/team deserve blame for the action of the fans. I think the next two contests between the Pacers and Pistons in Detroit should be without fans in attendence.

When lawsuits come, NBA, Piston management should also be equal partners in the lawsuit if a player is named. NBA for providing a venue that could get out of hand and the Piston Management for inadequate security.

Not many of us remember back that far, and the NBA has had their marketing machine humming along nicely for years to paint themselves as a kid-friendly form of entertainment. And it's paid off big for them: the league, the teams, the players, shoe, clothing and apparel makers, retail outlets, media outlets.

I bet you a nickel (I have 1 left ;) ) that the first calls David Stern got was from the CEOs of Walmart, Nike, Sears, Disney and Reebok.

Just some ramblings
 

Since I have either ref'ed or played hoops for almost 40 years now, I can't remember for the life of me ever seeing a basketball referee go into the stands to retaliate, or should I say, "defend his honor".

Why is it that we officials are held to a standard that says walk away at all costs, but yet the players and fans are not.

Ohh, he was only defending himself...or if I got beer thrown on me by a fan, I'd go after that fan. Well I'm here to tell all of you, that I have had water thrown in my face and been pelted by cans thrown by fans as an official and never once went into the stands after them. I would venture a guess that if a ref did that, he would not be working any longer unless it was making Pizza's. There would not be any suspension, fine or any of this pandering, they would be gone for good. But, the athlete is a different breed I guess. They are allowed to get away with murder (pardon the pun....no wait, oops!) and get a suspension only to return to active duty. Talk about a two way street!!

What also was amusing was to hear all the ex-players and even the players union bemoan the fact that the players are always verbally abused by the fans. Oh, really? Why not talk to a few game officials and get their opinion on being verbally abused by the fans and the players! What a bunch of babies!

Basically, I'll side with the others that say at no time is any player justified in going into the stands, unless it is to hug his mother or father.

IMO, Artest is a bad apple and the league has gotten what it deserved for not coming down harder on him and the Pacers over the years. What boggles my mind is that if I owned a business I surely would not put up with his behavior, and neither should the league.

Overall, similar to the NFL, the NBA are hypocrites in the sense that they have embraced all this ganster rap stuff, and put up with a lot of crappy behavior all in the name of ratings. Only now, it is coming back to haunt them. Personally, I'd like to see the NBA just go away. The college game is far and away a better game, and for better or worse, the NBA is merely headed down the same path as the NHL. Does anyone really watch this stuff anymore?

goose

Just some random thoughts on the fight:

- The foul was cheap because the Pacers were up 15 with 0:45 to go in the game, not because it was from behind or because there was no play on the ball. This violates an unwritten NBA law that says you do not maim your fellow millionaires during the regular season if the game is out of reach.

- Ron Artest is paid several million a year to not go into the stands. The NBA has an obligation to train new players about this, not just on how to get out of paternity suits.

- Artest pretty much went after the first guy he saw laughing at him, not anyone that threw anything at him.

- Artest didn't fight the 6'9 230 guy that pushed him and threw a towel at him, but went after the 5'9' 165 guy that was laughing at him. What does this say about him?

- Detroit Piston security should have gotten into better position before Artest went into the stands.

- This is not unique, it is similar to old-time baseball games, where players frequently went into the stands after fans. The game will survive.

- It is unfortunate that in our society, it is considered manly to respond to disrespect with violence. In the Ravenswood Project where Ron Artest grew up, this may have been a necessary survival skill. But he's not in the projects anymore, and his livelihood depends on him realizing this.

- For a people that frequently refer to ourselves as Christian, it is amazing how few of us ever turn the other cheek, or even consider this before lashing out.

- Be prepared for the idiot fans in the next few weeks to be baiting players in the games you work.

Here's the problem with that. With under a minute to go in the game, security had moved into the concourses in preparation for the fans to leave the arena. I'm sure something will be changed with regards to this in the future.

Sad for everyone involved!
 

I am from Indiana...and I am a Pacers fan...so, I wanted to get that out of the way first. However, I am NOT a fan of the NBA. I simply cannot stand the league...or their so-called game!

Here are my opinions:

Artest: Got what he deserved. This was bound to happen sooner or later. He has a good heart, but he also has a screw loose and needs psychiatric help. NO PLAYER should ever leave the court no matter what!!!! He better pray that no criminal charges are filed against him.

Jackson: Got what he deserved...even if he was trying to help defend his teammate.

O'Neal: Got shafted! He never left the freaking floor with the intent on fighting. He did all his "damage" while protecting himself ON THE FLOOR.

Johnson: Got shafted! He too never left the floor! He only tried to defend his teammate in front of their own bench!

Wallace: Made out like a bandit! His incitement of the crowd...the situation...and his OVER-reaction from a common foul...started the whole fracas. HOW DOES THIS GUY ONLY GET 6 GAMES!?!?!?!?!?!? What about the foul he gave Artest a few plays earlier on the Pacers end of the court? Artest, to his credit, did nothing.

Detroit Security: So woeful that not even words can describe how bad they were. I think I read that there were only 8 uniformed policemen in the Palace?? (Maybe enough for a small college D-I game!) Their biggest concern seemed to be trying to threaten the Pacers players with pepper spray. Gentlemen, what about the several hundred out of control fans that you don't seem to be paying attention to!?!?!?!?!

Detroit Pistons Team: Made out like bandits! The one opponent who is the biggest threat to their Eastern Conference Title will now be severly under-manned for the remainder of the year.

Detroit Pistons Organization: They should incur huge fines & several lawsuits from this mess.

NBA: Brace yourselves for the coming lawsuits!

Officials: Exonerated! What else could they have done? Perhaps Garretson & Donaghy could have come in a bit sooner to try to get players separated...but I think they did about all they could do. I don't blame them ONE BIT!

First off, to IndyRef, O'Neal got what he deserved also. The punches that got him in trouble were the ones he threw at the fan who had already been pumelled for coming on the floor, was visibly dazed, and was being grabbed by security - then O'Neal comes flying in there and landed a haymaker with his entire body weight and momentum behind it? He could've killed the guy - O'Neal got what he deserved!

Also, anyone besides me thinking the NBA should reconsider the selling of alcoholic beverages at the stadiums? Hmmm - no drunk Pistons fans, maybe no fight?

Lastly, I heard some talking head on ESPN radio this morning bemoaning the fact the Pacers got 134 games of suspensions, while Pistons only got 9...for the life of me, I can't think of anything more ludicrous to be whining about - which of the Piston players was beating on fans?

As far as alcohol, after a kentucky player was killed a few years ago in an accident due to alcohol they have quit selling it at games!! it has been a lot better at all football and basketball games and has cut down on security problems at these games as well....

i know NBA gets a lot of money for selling alcohol during these games, but should think about stopping sales after halftime or something to reduce the amount of time these fans have to get loaded>>>>

Sorry, rock...but any fan coming onto the floor to participate in a fiasco such as what happened deserves everything he gets! Plus, I have the whole thing...and the breakdown in a file. There is NO way you're going to tell me that the fan that took it on the jaw was being restrained by security! What are you looking at??!?! Actually, someone from security is about to help the guy up...NOT GET HIM OFF THE FLOOR! That so-called security guy was just standing there while the whole melee was going on! Also let me remind you that the guy O'Neal hit had just tried to take Artest down with his drunk buddy in the Pistons uniform.

So if security is "about to help the guy up", what need was there for O'Neal to come in and belt the guy the way he did? O'Neal got what he deserved...

Re: Sad for everyone involved!
 

You may change your mind after seeing this clip. It's got a good shot of O'Neal OFF OF THE FLOOR fighting.

Click the link, and then click on "Sports Center breaks down the brawl" on the left-hand side.

http://sports.espn.go.com/broadband/.../index?1927343

Re: Re: Sad for everyone involved!
 

Not only that but when he blindisded the fan on the court, he was NOT DEFENDING HIMSELF. He races across the floor and blindsided the guy. The guy was no way near him and not threatening to him.

And yes, he was in the stands!

And Steven Jackson, he should have received the same suspension as Artest, or worse. He wasn't even provoked like Artest was. Yet he still chose to dive into the fracas instead or trying to get his teammate out of the stands, like Reggie Miller was doing. Instead of being part of the solution, he becamse part of the problem.

Another insightful comment from WCB
 

From Jimgolf
Just some random thoughts on the fight:

- Ron Artest is paid several million a year to not go into the stands. The NBA has an obligation to train new players about this, not just on how to get out of paternity suits.
••••••••••••••••••••••••• ••••••••••••••••••••••••• •••••••••

Ron Artest is paid millions of dollare to PLAY BASKETBALL in the NBA. His upbringing precluded what most of us enjoyed. My parents taught me restraint and to leave my emotions on the field/court.

We applaud when some numb-nuts runs onto the football field and a linebacker flattens him. "He should have known better.", "What the hell was he doing messing around on the field?" or "What did he expect, did you see the size of the guy who hit him?"

We have all been involved in heat of the moment actions. Coaches/Players say things that they would never do otherwise. Change the action to your workplace. A couple of guys are pushing and shoving. You run up and toss a beer on one of them. What's the next scene?

I may be just a dumb baseball umpire, but I know that if I throw a beer in the face of a 6'8", 240# Neanderthal, I better have a clear shot at the exit. Yes, Artest is a goon. But you can't expect him to stand there (after scrapping for the entire game) and say, "Security, please escort that getleman from the premises. He is displaying very unsocial behavior."

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
You don't tug on Superman's cape, you don't spit into the wind, you don't pull the mask off the ol' Lone Ranger and you don't mess around with Slim.
- Jim Croce

FYI,

The doofus who threw the beer that started the whole mess, is missing. The police identified him and asked him to come in for a little "rubber hose" chat. Lo and behold he is no where to be found. You think Johnny Cochran is in Detroit?

Re: Another insightful comment from WCB
 

I think you'll get very little disagreement here.

Maybe you can't expect that reaction but you're just a (self-admitted) dumb and completely powerless baseball umpire.

David Stern, OTOH, runs the show & I think it might even be clear to you exactly what he expects the proper reaction to be.

Do you get a kick out of being so wrong so often?

http://www.clickondetroit.com/sports...54/detail.html

As much as I do not like Ron Artest because of the way he has behaved over the past few weeks and years in the NBA, I do think Jackson should have gotten the stiffer suspension for his actions.

I am not a Pacers fan at all, even more I am Pistons fan all the way though. As much as I like Ben Wallace, he probably should have been suspended for more then six games because his shuff got the real stuff going.

However, though Artest should have just let Wallace scored and not fouled him though. Needless, I am glad I was not in Commissioner Stearns's position with having to sort this whole mess out.

I do think Artest's suspension was because of his league history that he has with the NBA unfortunately. As much as the Indiana fans, player's union reps, and Artest fans want to complain about the length of the suspension, it is nt a surprise because of Artest's history recently in the NBA.

I am in NO WAY defending the Pistons staff asnd players who were involved in this mess, because they are responsible as well for their actions. I am just sorry to see that NBA has to go through this situation right now.

Re: Re: Another horsesh*tcomment from WCB
 

Well, I disagree. He's a dumb troll.

Yo, Gary Spevak. Go away. You know- just like UMPS said to you after you embarrased them so badly. Go far away. Try the General Forum again. Go call Rut a few more names. Do what you do best- but go away to do it. If you don't, I'll tell Rocky.

I haven't read all of the prior posts (there's just too much), so forgive me if I repeat, but:

1. Artest didn't go after the guy who threw the cup at him; he went after someone who was taunting him, not knowing who threw the cup. He slugged the wrong guy.

2. The police already have identified the guy who threw the cup.

3. There weren't "hundreds" of wild fans in the melee; if you look, the stands were almost empty because the game had been decided. There were only about 4 or 5 fans involved.

4. Look at the tape and ask yourself, honestly, if the two idiots who went on the court truly presented a threat to Artest or O'Neal. These guys got coldcocked by the players just for opening their mouths. They never raised their hands or did anything other than be *******s who put themselves at risk so they could get on TV.

5. Had Artest not gone into the stands, Ben Wallace's retaliatory shove probably would have earned him a 1- or 2-game suspension, and Artest would have gotten nothing. Artest's initial foul wasn't that bad, and Nunez and Carlisle had calmed the on-court situation. Artest started the real trouble because he couldn't turn the other cheek when hit by a paper cup.

Re: Re: Re: Another horsesh*tcomment from WCB
 

Oh, I'm all over it JR...the goon squad has been sent out...

I have a different opinion
 

Many people have to a cetain degree responsibility for what happended, however, most of the blame lies on Artest. I'm not condoning what Wallace did or the fans. They all should be punished, and Wallace is getting a more serious penalty than I believe he deserves. The fan who threw the beer should be barred from the arena for a year at least. Any fan who threw a punch that was not in defense of himself should be arrested for assault. The guy who threw the chair should be arrested as well. But the foul and the push by Wallace and what happened in the stands are separate issues as far as I'm concerned.

The situation had calmed itself when an irresponsible fan threw a cup of beer on Artest. If Artest had not gone into the stands nothing else whould have happened, except the removal of the fan. Wallace was going to be ejected anyways. It would have all ended there had not two things have happended. One the fan throwing the beer and Artest over-reacting. Yes, over-reacting.

Some have said that Artest has the right to defend himself. From what? A cup of beer? No way can there be a self-defense justification for what Artest did. No way! All Artest had to do is remove himself from the area. Why was he on the table in the first place? In order to claim self-defense, you have to believe your life is in danger. Artest put himself in danger when he went into the stands. Another eliminate to self-defense is proportional response. You can't convince me that pummeling a fan is equal to a beer in the chest.

As soon as I saw it, I thought Artest should have been suspended for the remainder of the year. I also thought Jackson should have received the same penalty. He also went into the stands.

I also disagree with the foul be a no-nothing foul. Maybe I need to see it again, but what I remember is a hard shove from behind by Artest. Wallace was frustrated and the game was over. That does not excuse the push by Wallace. I believe it was far worse than the foul by Artest. However, Pacers up by 15 with 45 seconds left. There is no way Artest should have pushed Wallace that hard from behind. The game was over! Have I seen worse? Yes! But I've also seen fights from similar fouls before. A no-nothing foul. I don't think so.

Just my opinion.

It's just sad that men with so much control over a sport can have such little control over their written abilities.

dan...Artest is a goon. Artest should have been suspended for the season. But, the numb-nuts that threw the beer and the idiot who challenged him on the floor should have to go to jail and be forced to watch Bulls games the whole time.
The baseball comment was called self deprecating humor.

Much like your posts on the baseball site, "stick to what you know" is advice worth revisiting. I offred no opinion of the officiating during that game. As a fan though, I can certainly offer the same insight as the pundits on any sports program. Check out ESPN, more than a couple of "experts" share the same thoughts.

Jurassic - Do we need to go back and find the posts that had you saying that name calling and put downs were the sign of a weak mind? It seems that your glass house has developed a few cracks.