New Ref questions

[actuary77]

I'm a new ref just getting started with reffing organized basketball. I already got my rulebooks from my state association (Illinois), took the Part 1 test and mailed it. I think I nailed the test (it's pretty hard not to since it's open book) so I should be getting my license and patch within a few weeks.

I've been reffing a men's charity league for the past few weeks now. This league didn't have refs their previous seasons (call your own fouls type of thing) so they were happy to have 1 ref volunteer. I called most of the games by myself. Over the course of the season, I've run into a lot of situations brought about by the fact that I don't have much experience yet and of course, the difficulty of calling a game by yourself. These situations could very well be subjects of numerous threads.

Last night we started the playoffs and the league organizers decided to have 2 refs. They called the local assignor to provide us with a licensed ref. They were willing to pay the extra ref and I really didn't mind much that I wasn't being paid and he is since technically, I'm not licensed yet.

Obviously, this other ref was more experienced than me (he claimed to have been reffing for 8 years now). But here is some of the things I noticed about him:
(1) First, he came in late. I started the game by myself (which is usually the case) and he came in at around the 15:00 mark.
(2) We didn't conference so we weren't able to go through mechanics, switching, simultaneous calls, etc.
(3) We weren't switching! He was always on the same side and so I had to cover the other side. So for the entire game, we covered the same endlines, i.e. I was always under Team A's basket for the entire 1st half and under Team B's for the 2nd half. I don't think this is ideal since switching would balance out some of the calls I may have missed in the post.
(4) He wasn't hustling! More often than not, he wasn't under the basket when he was lead.
(5) I noticed that he was allowing a lot of rough play and contact under the basket when he is lead which led to a lot of complaining and swearing from the players. If I had called the game myself, I probably would call it a little tighter just to get the players off my back. But obviously, I had to adjust to what we were allowing for consistency. He told me that he just came from a high school game he worked. Could it be that he was tired and just wanted this game to be over and go home? For those of you who have officiated men's leagues before, do you usually allow the players just to play and just call fouls when absolutely necessary? As he said to me: "These players pay to play not to shoot free throws".

Some of you may be asking why I didn't just take the initiative and raise these points with him last night. Well, as the newbie, I wasn't comfortable raising this discussion with him. I did ask him during the half if we needed to talk about anything since we didn't conference and he said "Not really". Should I have told him that I was a newbie, that I needed this game as a practice and I would prefer it if we followed the correct mechanics?

One more thing: Team A started the game with only 4 players (1 guy did not show up). During their 3rd possession, I called 3-seconds on A (one of their players was camping forever out there). They started getting on me saying "How can you call 3-seconds when we only have 4 players?" Do they have a point or are they just trying to test me or show me up? As far as I know, there is no suspension of any rules when one team has less than 5 players.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated.

[Redhouse]

I will try to offer what I can to help you in the future. I have also officiated mens rec leagues, kids leagues, and HS. I have found that in a lot of the kids leagues and adult leagues the officiating can be a lot more relaxed than when you are calling a HS or above game. There is not anyone evaluating your performance and very often you are not even paid for your service as it is in your case. Personally I never did enjoy mens rec leagues because I basically had to do to much babysitting and explaining the rules to coaches and players that seemed to not care too much anyway.

Typically in a rec league you are not going to have to many officials that have a pre-game routine, just toss the ball and go. What I will suggest to you for the future if you want to use this opportunity as a learning experience is talk with one of the members of your asociation that you look up to or know is a good official and either ask them to come and call a game with you or if they would come observe you for a game and critic your performance.

If that is not possible, while you are calling with this other official and things happen just say to yourself what you would normally do in that circumstance, whether it be switch or call a foul. I hope this helps a little and good luck in your season.

[bgtg19]

Welcome to the fraternity. As Redhouse said, most rec league games are not as "serious" to officials as, say, a high school game would be. That does not excuse things like not hustling or being late -- I urge and hope that all of us who do this are "professional" all the time -- but it does mean that things will be a little different.

My guess is that you could have approached him about following proper mechanics (e.g., switching on fouls), but the fact that you didn't probably means that he was not presenting himself to you as "approachable." That's on him, not on you.

Work hard, keep trying to get better. Not every official has the same goals/desires as you; don't let that eat at you, just do the best you can.

Again, welcome!

[SmokeEater]

It sound like the other official was just being a little lazy. There is no excuses for not calling a game properly and using correct mechanics. If fatigue was an issue he should have gotten someone else to do the game for him.

Ok, that being said, I believe when I am getting paid for a job I should fulfill the duties completely. I can unerstand that as a volunteer you may let some things slide depending how they effect the flow of the game or if an advantage is gained.

This is just my opinion, I may be wrong, but I doubt it!

[David M]

One more thing: Team A started the game with only 4 players (1 guy did not show up). During their 3rd possession, I called 3-seconds on A (one of their players was camping forever out there). They started getting on me saying "How can you call 3-seconds when we only have 4 players?" Do they have a point or are they just trying to test me or show me up? As far as I know, there is no suspension of any rules when one team has less than 5 players.

Any comments would be greatly appreciated. [/B][/QUOTE]

Rule 3-1-1 Each team consists of five players, one of whom is the captain.

Note: A team must begin the game with five players, but if it has no substitutes to replace disqualified or injured players, it must continue with less than five. When there is only one player participating for a team, the team shall forfeit the game, unless the referee believes that team has an opportunity to win the game.

[BktBallRef]

If they don't have 5 players, we don't play.

[golfdesigner]

Welcome to the group
I too do HS [85 games on the docket for this year] a lot of Mens Rec games [15-20 so far this year with more to come]; I try to use them to sharpen skills; mechanics; working to get the angles; get in shape; get more experience and see more basketball; etc.

if I find a "lazy" partner I suggest or almost force a switch if there is a foul called or we are shooting I grab the ball and go administer the FT or the OOB or toss the ball to my partner and make him administer the FT or OOB, or I'll do a long switch to change ends and make him move to other end, just to keep fresh..

if you stay at one end too long, for me at least, the night takes forever...

you can then talk at TOs or between halves with partner to explain you would like to switch to see both ends of the gym

As far as starting with 4 players, some leagues allow that, but no fewer than 4...

[just another ref]

Originally posted by actuary77
I had to adjust to what we were allowing for consistency

Be careful here. Try to call your own game. You shouldn't stop calling fouls just because your partner is not calling any or vice versa.

[SMEngmann]

Laziness of the officials seems to be a part of rec ball, and I don't really understand it. I can understand the not switching because a lot of these leagues play with running clocks and the switches eat away playing time, but nothing else. Nothing worse for me than to work a game where my partner doesn't care. If you're not gonna put forth the effort, why are you even doing the game??? I use my rec ball games to work on my officiating and game management. I take the games seriously, but others don't. Guess that's why they do a ton of rec-ball. On another note, some private athletic clubs will pay a HS game fee to the officials, and a HS game is called with switches and all.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
If they don't have 5 players, we don't play.

Would you still expect to get paid for that game?
I guess you could argue that you held up your end of the bargain by showing up...so should the players.

I officiated in Rec leagues earlier in my career (and played) and I was often times disgusted with officials who wouldn't officiate a game for us because we didn't have enough players show up...even when the other team offered some of their players to "even it up".

The officials got paid, whether there was a game or not. Since there were 3 games a night...we might be the middle game...so the officials would have to sit there and wait for the 3rd game anyway...why not help the guys out (who paid money to get into the league) and officiate.

Some officials did officiate in those situations...some did not.
I did officiate...but then I am a player and understand how much the guys just wanted to play.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by RookieDude

Would you still expect to get paid for that game?
I guess you could argue that you held up your end of the bargain by showing up...so should the players.

I officiated in Rec leagues earlier in my career (and played) and I was often times disgusted with officials who wouldn't officiate a game for us because we didn't have enough players show up...even when the other team offered some of their players to "even it up".

The officials got paid, whether there was a game or not. Since there were 3 games a night...we might be the middle game...so the officials would have to sit there and wait for the 3rd game anyway...why not help the guys out (who paid money to get into the league) and officiate.

Some officials did officiate in those situations...some did not.
I did officiate...but then I am a player and understand how much the guys just wanted to play.

When I say "...we don't play," I'm saying that the rec league rules here don't allow us to play the game if both teams don't have 5. It's not my decision. And no, if we have a forfeit and they still want to play, we don't officiate it. Something happens, we're not covered by insurance or backed by the recreation dept.

So they can play but it's a forfeit and we don't officiate.

[ref18]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

When I say "...we don't play," I'm saying that the rec league rules here don't allow us to play the game if both teams don't have 5. It's not my decision. And no, if we have a forfeit and they still want to play, we don't officiate it. Something happens, we're not covered by insurance or backed by the recreation dept.

So they can play but it's a forfeit and we don't officiate.

I hope you'd get paid for it also. We take the time and effort to get to the gym to ref. If the players don't show up it's not our fault. If your assigned a game, and you show up, but either there's not enough plyers or some other excuse for a cancelled game, you'll get paid. That's how my association works.

Always follow the rules as they are writtain, if you set them aside, that can be interpreted as negligence, and if there's a situation that has a lawsuit directed at you you'll get eaten alive for your negligence.

[gordon30307]

1. If your partner was getting paid then you should have gotten paid as well.

2. He may have had a good reason for being late, but there is no good reason for being lazy and not doing your job.

3. Switching on fouls etc. is not commonly done in rec leagues etc., but my rule of thumb is that if my partner wants to switch I'll switch. You could have forced him to switch by simply switching. Sort of like bump and run on violations.

4. At all times work hard and hustle. You never know who is watching.

5. If your partner is not calling anything than you should clean up the rough play. The players and your partner will get the message.

[RookieDude]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

When I say "...we don't play," I'm saying that the rec league rules here don't allow us to play the game if both teams don't have 5. It's not my decision. And no, if we have a forfeit and they still want to play, we don't officiate it. Something happens, we're not covered by insurance or backed by the recreation dept.

So they can play but it's a forfeit and we don't officiate.

I guess we run things a little looser out here in the West.
Our Rec Dept. said it was up to the officials if they wanted to officiate the forfeited game.
The gym time was already paid for...the officials are getting paid...so I would guess the insurance issues wouldn't (or shouldn't) matter just because the teams switched a few dues paying members around.

BTW, our Rec Dept. allowed the games to be started as long as a team had at least 4 players.


[Edited by RookieDude on Nov 17th, 2004 at 11:46 PM]