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rainmaker Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:41am

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra
Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra
What's to worry about? It's an easy T. The player is accusing your partner of a racial bias and implying that you will have his back, also based on race.
Who said anything about being worried? You choose to make a scene and now have to explain a hefty accusation.

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra
It's no different than dropping the N-word on somebody while he's out there, but it's okay if only you could hear it, and it won't show up on tape.
Please do not start those “N-word” comparisons. That is more insulting than what the kid implied.

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra
Not to mention that your other 4 foul calls on this player will also be on tape, and how do you defend a ticky-tac call on him when you've let the same thing go on other players when/if your assignor asks?
Who said anything about calling ticky tack fouls? What I have found in my experience is that the kid that takes little or no responsibility for fouls and his actions will usually do the same thing again. I will not have to make up anything to make a point.

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra
He called my partner a racist, so I fouled him out. Yep, that's a much better solution.;)
He did not call him a racist. :rolleyes: Save that drama. He implied that because "we are the same race," I would give him a break. He just let me know that he cannot take any responsibility for his actions, so I will make sure that anytime he blinks wrong I got a foul on him. No benefit of the doubt or ruling what might be considered incidental. Now I have any push, hold or pull that he makes. Any screen he makes is not perfect, I have a foul. All it takes is just two fouls and he will be on the bench anyway. If he plays the game by the rules (no pushing and holding) then he has nothing to worry about. This is no different than if I have two teams that almost had a fight during the game. You adjust your officiating to the knuckleheads that do not want to play by the rules.

Peace

Your take from post one, was sprinkled with comments like.

On the tape, explaining to the assignor, yet now you say who's worried?

You are not addressing an issue by dealing with the problem, you are altering the way you are calling the game to deal with the player and not WHAT THE PLAYER DID.

This is not anything like changing mid-game for rough play, that is calling more to STOP out of control play. That's addressing the problem by calling what's causing the problem.

Your approach to this player is not, you are covering yourself from explaining what the T was for, and not dealing with the kid's behavior.

Like it or not the kid DID imply that your partner was racially biased, I don't care HOW he said it, he said it.

Let's add a wrinkle. A non-vanilla sprinkle player hears what the kid said, and you being a sprinkle don't penalize it, and in your original post you did not even go as far as to verbally address the issue, now you call a close one on a non-sprinkle player. Did you not just open the door for this player to also question your integrity?

Jeff and BZ -- Different situations will require different treatments. The best way to handle a situation variies from ref to ref, from player to player, and from city to city. And from season to season. We tend to think of America as one big culture, but it's not so. There are many many nuances of culture from place to place and even within a certain locale from one group to another. What's important isn't that we all handle it in a single way, but that we all agree that it needs handling and that it needs careful attention.

I want to ask Dan, soo..o..o.. what did YOU do?

JRutledge Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:51am

I have a story for you.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra


Your take from post one, was sprinkled with comments like.

On the tape, explaining to the assignor, yet now you say who's worried?

You are not addressing an issue by dealing with the problem, you are altering the way you are calling the game to deal with the player and not WHAT THE PLAYER DID.

This is not anything like changing mid-game for rough play, that is calling more to STOP out of control play. That's addressing the problem by calling what's causing the problem.

Your approach to this player is not, you are covering yourself from explaining what the T was for, and not dealing with the kid's behavior.

Like it or not the kid DID imply that your partner was racially biased, I don't care HOW he said it, he said it.

Let's add a wrinkle. A non-vanilla sprinkle player hears what the kid said, and you being a sprinkle don't penalize it, and in your original post you did not even go as far as to verbally address the issue, now you call a close one on a non-sprinkle player. Did you not just open the door for this player to also question your integrity?

In 2003 I was working a varsity football game. One school was all white. The other had only a couple of Black kids on the team. I did not notice this really until this particular incident happen. Well the make up of my football crew is 2 Black officials and 3 white officials. I am the Referee (if you have not figured out what color I am by now, I am Black) and my Umpire is Black as well. Both my wings and BJ are all white.

Now sometime in the first half one of the Black players on the home team accused the other team of calling him the "N-word." Now the two people that would likely have heard it, was both myself and my umpire. It would not surprise me that someone used that word in a pile or somewhere on the field, but I cannot penalize anything I did not hear. The kid got upset and then accused one of my partners (the crew chief) of saying the same thing. This kid later snapped and took off his helmet and hit himself with it. The kid was bleeding as a result and was all over the coach. Well the coach was a winner as well and I personally had given an Unsportsmanlike Foul to the coach at about the same time this kid went ballistic about being called the "N-word." I was personally was unaware of this incident until we came together to access all the fouls (3 were given against this one team). After I realized what was going on and we had to explain why this kid was now ejected from the game, we had to justify our actions. When we told the coach what had happen, the coaching staff claimed this kid was the most outstanding individual and would never act in anyway without being provoked. When halftime came, an assistant coach tried to approach us accusing one of my partner's of using the "N-word" (not the Black guys btw). When this was happening I was still unaware of all the circumstances that took place with this kid and why he was ejected from the game. When we got to our stop for halftime, the Principal of the school was asking us what had happen and what the kid said and did. He also backed up the story about how great this kid was and "He would not do anything like that. That is not the kind of character he has."

When the game was over, the AD echoed the very same thing. "He would not act that way without someone provoking him."

So instead of the actions of the kid were in question, our actions were really in question. Now I must make it clear that all the coaches were white and accusing the white officials on the crew of making inappropriate statements. It was surreal because you would think they would just look at me and my umpire and see that we might not tolerate that kind of behavior. Instead of focusing on the actions of the player, the integrity of our crew was questioned and I am the face of that crew.

Now in football you do not have a foul system that can really eject a player. Of course you have Unsportsmanlike fouls to help you, but those have to be there or justified. If I give a player or coach one of those I have to file a report with the state office. If I foul out a kid or his coach sets him on the bench for fouls, I do not have to justify anything.

There is a reason we teach officials to stay away from the table or when we talk to a coach, have a witness. We want to take away the doubt if something goes wrong. If a player approaches me one on one, it is his word against mine. And most coaches I know will take the kids word over my word or the word of my partner. Of course some coaches will stand up and take issue with the actions of the kid and might make him run in practice until the cows come home. But it is not the honorable coach I am looking to take action. So I will handle it another way instead of taking the easy way out. He will get the message that we are not on the same page. I would even take a very similar route as BITS suggested. Just T'ing in my book is not automatically the answer.

Peace

JRutledge Mon Nov 15, 2004 01:11am

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker

Jeff and BZ -- Different situations will require different treatments. The best way to handle a situation variies from ref to ref, from player to player, and from city to city. And from season to season. We tend to think of America as one big culture, but it's not so. There are many many nuances of culture from place to place and even within a certain locale from one group to another. What's important isn't that we all handle it in a single way, but that we all agree that it needs handling and that it needs careful attention.


Juulie, I agree with you. That is my whole point. I am an African-American and I have probably dealt with more of these situations than most here. It is very rare that I work a game where everyone in the stands and on the floor look just like me. So I have had to deal with many situations that are based on race and coaches and players that imply and complain that are getting screwed or not getting help because of the race of me and my partners. I never tolerate those kinds of accusations, but I do not and cannot T every situation that takes place with that kind of insinuation. If I did, I would not go one game without a T.

Peace

zebraman Mon Nov 15, 2004 01:31am

Wow, this thread is getting involved. Not surprising since any issue involving race is a lightning rod in America. Not necessarily good or bad, just the way it is.

First of all, I personally wouldn't have T'd the kid. As Rut said, this is much different than the "N word." To me, the N word is profanity and an automatic T. This kid just made a stupid comment that was as ignorant as it was wrong. Make no mistake, I would straighten him out real quick with something like, <i>"hey number 24, I call them as I see them just like my partner does. He doesn't care which team wins this game any more than I do. The only thing we care about is that we keep it as fair as we can. I will not tolerate any more comments like that."</i> Now he's had his "sportsmanlike warning."

If someone I was working with felt the need to call a T in that situation, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but I can't see me calling one at that point. My skin (no pun intended) is thicker than that.

What I don't agree with Rut on is changing the way I call fouls on that particular kid. That's worse than just calling a T, clearing the slate and moving on. Calling fouls on him later in the game that wouldn't be a foul by any other player is "holding a grudge" and approaches unethical, IMHO. Besides, you're penalizing more than just that kid by doing that... your penalizing his teammates with those "additional fouls" as well.

As far as having to fill out reports or having to justify a T with an assignor, I couldn't care less. I do what I think is appropriate at the time to manage the game without worrying about some backseat driver later. I do everything I can to "preventative officiate" but if a T is needed, a T will be given.

Z

JRutledge Mon Nov 15, 2004 01:44am

Quote:

Originally posted by zebraman
What I don't agree with Rut on is changing the way I call fouls on that particular kid. That's worse than just calling a T, clearing the slate and moving on. Calling fouls on him later in the game that wouldn't be a foul by any other player is "holding a grudge" and approaches unethical, IMHO. Besides, you're penalizing more than just that kid by doing that... your penalizing his teammates with those "additional fouls" as well.
I never said to change the way I do anything. I said I would not pass on a call when that player is involved. This would be no different if I felt I screwed up on a call, I would be more careful the next time. All it takes is two more fouls and this kid is sitting on the bench.

There are many situations in the game where we decide to have a quicker whistle than normal. Usually it might be a fight or early in the game because the teams are rivals or the foul situation is out of whack. I hear guys all the time come here and use all kinds of judgments to stay out of trouble and this in my opinion is no different.

Peace

blindzebra Mon Nov 15, 2004 02:58am

Rut, that cuts both ways. I'm white and there have been many times where I have been the only white person involved in the game, and other times because of the area I live, that I've officiated all African-American teams versus all white or Mexican-American teams.

My high school partner is African-American and last year we were working a tournament game at a local Air Force base. This is one of the times where I was the only white person.

I had a call, went to report it and as I was moving back into position there comes a whistle from my partner. He had just T'd a player for suggesting my calls were being made for a "reason".

We are a team out there, and if having my partner's back means having to explain something to an assignor or a coach, so be it, but I'm not going to just adjust my calls to handle the kid, hoping he gets the message. The player will get the message, and then we will move on with the game.

JRutledge Mon Nov 15, 2004 03:29am

I never told you how to handle these situations.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra
Rut, that cuts both ways. I'm white and there have been many times where I have been the only white person involved in the game, and other times because of the area I live, that I've officiated all African-American teams versus all white or Mexican-American teams.
How many games do you work where you are the "only one" in the gym? If I decided to only work games where all the coaches, players and fans were of the same color, I would probably not work one game during the season. I am almost always the "only one" in the gym. It is extremely rare that I will ever work a game where everyone is of my race and color. So please do not tell me it cuts both ways. I live in a metropolitan area and I get tired of having to work the Black school vs. the white school games in certain conferences just because I am an African-American. I know many white officials that never see an all-Black team. Do not get me wrong, many times those Black players are some of the most talented in the area. I just do not like that I have to work those schools just because of the color of my skin.

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra
My high school partner is African-American and last year we were working a tournament game at a local Air Force base. This is one of the times where I was the only white person.

I had a call, went to report it and as I was moving back into position there comes a whistle from my partner. He had just T'd a player for suggesting my calls were being made for a "reason".

We are a team out there, and if having my partner's back means having to explain something to an assignor or a coach, so be it, but I'm not going to just adjust my calls to handle the kid, hoping he gets the message. The player will get the message, and then we will move on with the game.


Well all that is wonderful. And when you guys work your games you can handle those situations anyway you like. I never told you how to handle your games or what to call. I answered Dan's question to what I would do. When I am working and those situations are raised, I handle them the way I suggested and it works for me. Like Juulie says, I do not know the area you live. But around here, race is a constant backdrop to the games that are played. It is a constant topic of conversation with officials (in all the sports I work). It is something that we have to deal with regularly. If I T'd up every suggestion of a "reason" based on race, I would have more Ts called than the games I have worked in all my years I have been officiating.

Peace


Jurassic Referee Mon Nov 15, 2004 07:50am

Upon further review, after having a good night's sleep and also getting in touch with my feminine side, I'd still "T" the little sh*t up. Every time. No warning.

It's a racial comment and he's crapping on my partner(s). That's good enough for me.

And also, it's very, very easy to explain to anyone too. You just tell them that he made a racial comment and also crapped on your partner(s). It shouldn't be up to you to defend your actions. Let the little sh*t that made the comment defend HIS actions instead.




Rich Mon Nov 15, 2004 09:20am

Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra
What's to worry about? It's an easy T. The player is accusing your partner of a racial bias and implying that you will have his back, also based on race.
Who said anything about being worried? You choose to make a scene and now have to explain a hefty accusation.

Quote:

Originally posted by blindzebra
It's no different than dropping the N-word on somebody while he's out there, but it's okay if only you could hear it, and it won't show up on tape.
Please do not start those “N-word” comparisons. That is more insulting than what the kid implied.

No, it is not. What was said to Dan is far, far worse.

JRutledge Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:13am

Quote:

Originally posted by Rich Fronheiser


No, it is not. What was said to Dan is far, far worse.

Maybe it is to you, but it surely is not to me.

Peace

ChrisSportsFan Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:34am

it boils my blood anytime ANYBODY plays the race card. If players, coaches and fans would just understand, we really don't care who wins the game.

IMO, the worst situation, is when the all black team is in black jerseys and the all white team is in white. Seems like a recipe for disaster.

My wife and I are white and we have fostered black children, it usually hurts when someone plays the race card either way.

JRutledge Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:49am

Race is not a card, it is a reality.

Chris,

If you are going to raise children that are African-American, you have to understand that any mention of race is not an offensive issue. If it was, I would be offended anytime I walked out of the house. I am a younger looking person of color and when I officiate, players that are the same races as I am approach me in a way that signifies our race and culture. That not a card that is being played, that is the reality of the world we live in. The first thing people see is the color and shape of a person. That is the reality from the beginning of time up until right now. You are never going to eliminate all mentions of race, nor should you.

Peace

ChrisSportsFan Mon Nov 15, 2004 10:59am

Rut, I'm with you, you'll never eliminate it all because some of the bad apples ruin it for the rest. 2 steps forwared, 1-3 steps back. My comments are an attempt to state that sometimes people get stereo-typed when others don't even know the real person. I'm not stating any new revelation and it can happen in any direction. This is reality in this world we live in but it would be nice if it didn't need to be brought into HS athletics, where sportsmanship "should" come first.

rainmaker Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:09pm

I STILL WANT TO KNOW HOW DAN HANDLED THE ORIGINAL SITUATION!!

Jurassic Referee Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:25pm

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
I STILL WANT TO KNOW HOW DAN HANDLED THE ORIGINAL SITUATION!!
Hush, Woman!

It's a good discussion and it ain't over yet. I know that there is an inherent and dominant feminine gene for nosiness, but try and restrain yourself anyway.


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