Inner city team A playing inner city rival team B to open the season at A's gym. About 100 or so people in the gym, the "diversity mixture" is as might be expected. I and a player from B are like 2 vanilla sprinkles floating in a chocolate/mocha milk shake. No big deal. Until my partner calls a foul on my fellow sprinkle about mid way through the first half. As we line up to shoot FTs the young sprinkle walks by me and comments "I know *you* wouldn't have called that foul on me."

What would *you* do?

Call the next 4 fouls on him. ;)

Peace

Remind him that you call the fouls you see and maybe he should think before he comments because he has his hands full enough just playing the game and doesn't need to work you to get the next call. Then move on. Or you can do what Rut said.

Seriously
 

I would not even entertain that conversation. I might say something like, "Young man, play basketball." Then I would walk away or get away from him. I have been in so many of these situations where the color differences are present. You just have to get prepared for those kinds of situations.

Peace

My first inclination would be to "T" up the little sh*t. He's directly questioning your partner(s) integrity imo with that inference. Personally, I usually don't bother warning for that crap either. One way or another, I think that you have to impress on him that the only colors that the officials are looking for out there are the colors of the shirts.

You can't change his beliefs. You can control the way that he expresses them though.

Well that depends JR.
 

I agree that he is questioning your integrity. I agree that his comments are out of line in many respects. But if the player or coach says this to you in such a quiet way and no one hears him, I might handle it another way.

This kid just put me on point with his attitude and his behavior. So now he is not getting the benefit of the doubt from me for the rest of the game. Some contact he was involved in that was questionable might just be a foul. I will never make anything up and I will always officiate for the tape. But I sure will not just "let it go" when he does something. Eventually he will be out of the game and he will realize that his comments did him no good.

Peace

If he's saying something you'd T him for if it was louder and it is going to bias how you call your game the rest of the night, i.e. he will get no slack, wouldn't the T be better?

Whack him and move on. That sends a clear message.

The beauty about officiating is that you can handle many situations any way you like. If you feel a T would be better, use a T. But then remember that you will have to explain a one on one conversation to someone. And like many coaches do, they believe the kid not the officials. Now the assignor gets word of the situation and starts asking you questions about what was said and starts nitpicking your behavior and your judgment.

That is why you either ignore his behind or just keep doing what you already have been doing. I know when a kid comes to me and complains about what another player is doing, I tend to remind them that means I will see what you are doing too. If the player has an outburst that everyone can see, at least you have tape or everyone can see he had to say something.

Peace

What's to worry about? It's an easy T. The player is accusing your partner of a racial bias and implying that you will have his back, also based on race.

It's no different than dropping the N-word on somebody while he's out there, but it's okay if only you could hear it, and it won't show up on tape.

Not to mention that your other 4 foul calls on this player will also be on tape, and how do you defend a ticky-tac call on him when you've let the same thing go on other players when/if your assignor asks?

He called my partner a racist, so I fouled him out. Yep, that's a much better solution.;)

"Congratulations, young man. You now have my undivided attention...for the rest of the game."

Said quietly, I'd would not acknowledge the statement and I would continue to officiate without prejudice.
Some people are stoopid. If they are quietly stoopid, it is better.
mick

I had a similar situation
 

A scrimmage, so there wasn't a lot of intensity there. I called a foul on a player. One of his teamates says to him, "don't worry, it was racial".

I stopped everything and went over to him and asked that perhaps I misunderstood what he said. He replied he was talking to his teamate. I again, asked if I perhaps didn't hear him correctly, then told him in a game his night would be over.

Who said anything about being worried? You choose to make a scene and now have to explain a hefty accusation.

Please do not start those “N-word” comparisons. That is more insulting than what the kid implied.

Who said anything about calling ticky tack fouls? What I have found in my experience is that the kid that takes little or no responsibility for fouls and his actions will usually do the same thing again. I will not have to make up anything to make a point.

He did not call him a racist. :rolleyes: Save that drama. He implied that because "we are the same race," I would give him a break. He just let me know that he cannot take any responsibility for his actions, so I will make sure that anytime he blinks wrong I got a foul on him. No benefit of the doubt or ruling what might be considered incidental. Now I have any push, hold or pull that he makes. Any screen he makes is not perfect, I have a foul. All it takes is just two fouls and he will be on the bench anyway. If he plays the game by the rules (no pushing and holding) then he has nothing to worry about. This is no different than if I have two teams that almost had a fight during the game. You adjust your officiating to the knuckleheads that do not want to play by the rules.

Peace

Your take from post one, was sprinkled with comments like.

On the tape, explaining to the assignor, yet now you say who's worried?

You are not addressing an issue by dealing with the problem, you are altering the way you are calling the game to deal with the player and not WHAT THE PLAYER DID.

This is not anything like changing mid-game for rough play, that is calling more to STOP out of control play. That's addressing the problem by calling what's causing the problem.

Your approach to this player is not, you are covering yourself from explaining what the T was for, and not dealing with the kid's behavior.

Like it or not the kid DID imply that your partner was racially biased, I don't care HOW he said it, he said it.

Let's add a wrinkle. A non-vanilla sprinkle player hears what the kid said, and you being a sprinkle don't penalize it, and in your original post you did not even go as far as to verbally address the issue, now you call a close one on a non-sprinkle player. Did you not just open the door for this player to also question your integrity?

I agree with Jurassic Ref. He basically insinuated that your partner is a rascist; took a shot at his credibility. T him up.

Jeff and BZ -- Different situations will require different treatments. The best way to handle a situation variies from ref to ref, from player to player, and from city to city. And from season to season. We tend to think of America as one big culture, but it's not so. There are many many nuances of culture from place to place and even within a certain locale from one group to another. What's important isn't that we all handle it in a single way, but that we all agree that it needs handling and that it needs careful attention.

I want to ask Dan, soo..o..o.. what did YOU do?

I have a story for you.
 

In 2003 I was working a varsity football game. One school was all white. The other had only a couple of Black kids on the team. I did not notice this really until this particular incident happen. Well the make up of my football crew is 2 Black officials and 3 white officials. I am the Referee (if you have not figured out what color I am by now, I am Black) and my Umpire is Black as well. Both my wings and BJ are all white.

Now sometime in the first half one of the Black players on the home team accused the other team of calling him the "N-word." Now the two people that would likely have heard it, was both myself and my umpire. It would not surprise me that someone used that word in a pile or somewhere on the field, but I cannot penalize anything I did not hear. The kid got upset and then accused one of my partners (the crew chief) of saying the same thing. This kid later snapped and took off his helmet and hit himself with it. The kid was bleeding as a result and was all over the coach. Well the coach was a winner as well and I personally had given an Unsportsmanlike Foul to the coach at about the same time this kid went ballistic about being called the "N-word." I was personally was unaware of this incident until we came together to access all the fouls (3 were given against this one team). After I realized what was going on and we had to explain why this kid was now ejected from the game, we had to justify our actions. When we told the coach what had happen, the coaching staff claimed this kid was the most outstanding individual and would never act in anyway without being provoked. When halftime came, an assistant coach tried to approach us accusing one of my partner's of using the "N-word" (not the Black guys btw). When this was happening I was still unaware of all the circumstances that took place with this kid and why he was ejected from the game. When we got to our stop for halftime, the Principal of the school was asking us what had happen and what the kid said and did. He also backed up the story about how great this kid was and "He would not do anything like that. That is not the kind of character he has."

When the game was over, the AD echoed the very same thing. "He would not act that way without someone provoking him."

So instead of the actions of the kid were in question, our actions were really in question. Now I must make it clear that all the coaches were white and accusing the white officials on the crew of making inappropriate statements. It was surreal because you would think they would just look at me and my umpire and see that we might not tolerate that kind of behavior. Instead of focusing on the actions of the player, the integrity of our crew was questioned and I am the face of that crew.

Now in football you do not have a foul system that can really eject a player. Of course you have Unsportsmanlike fouls to help you, but those have to be there or justified. If I give a player or coach one of those I have to file a report with the state office. If I foul out a kid or his coach sets him on the bench for fouls, I do not have to justify anything.

There is a reason we teach officials to stay away from the table or when we talk to a coach, have a witness. We want to take away the doubt if something goes wrong. If a player approaches me one on one, it is his word against mine. And most coaches I know will take the kids word over my word or the word of my partner. Of course some coaches will stand up and take issue with the actions of the kid and might make him run in practice until the cows come home. But it is not the honorable coach I am looking to take action. So I will handle it another way instead of taking the easy way out. He will get the message that we are not on the same page. I would even take a very similar route as BITS suggested. Just T'ing in my book is not automatically the answer.

Peace

Juulie, I agree with you. That is my whole point. I am an African-American and I have probably dealt with more of these situations than most here. It is very rare that I work a game where everyone in the stands and on the floor look just like me. So I have had to deal with many situations that are based on race and coaches and players that imply and complain that are getting screwed or not getting help because of the race of me and my partners. I never tolerate those kinds of accusations, but I do not and cannot T every situation that takes place with that kind of insinuation. If I did, I would not go one game without a T.

Peace

Wow, this thread is getting involved. Not surprising since any issue involving race is a lightning rod in America. Not necessarily good or bad, just the way it is.

First of all, I personally wouldn't have T'd the kid. As Rut said, this is much different than the "N word." To me, the N word is profanity and an automatic T. This kid just made a stupid comment that was as ignorant as it was wrong. Make no mistake, I would straighten him out real quick with something like, <i>"hey number 24, I call them as I see them just like my partner does. He doesn't care which team wins this game any more than I do. The only thing we care about is that we keep it as fair as we can. I will not tolerate any more comments like that."</i> Now he's had his "sportsmanlike warning."

If someone I was working with felt the need to call a T in that situation, I wouldn't have a problem with it, but I can't see me calling one at that point. My skin (no pun intended) is thicker than that.

What I don't agree with Rut on is changing the way I call fouls on that particular kid. That's worse than just calling a T, clearing the slate and moving on. Calling fouls on him later in the game that wouldn't be a foul by any other player is "holding a grudge" and approaches unethical, IMHO. Besides, you're penalizing more than just that kid by doing that... your penalizing his teammates with those "additional fouls" as well.

As far as having to fill out reports or having to justify a T with an assignor, I couldn't care less. I do what I think is appropriate at the time to manage the game without worrying about some backseat driver later. I do everything I can to "preventative officiate" but if a T is needed, a T will be given.

Z

I never said to change the way I do anything. I said I would not pass on a call when that player is involved. This would be no different if I felt I screwed up on a call, I would be more careful the next time. All it takes is two more fouls and this kid is sitting on the bench.

There are many situations in the game where we decide to have a quicker whistle than normal. Usually it might be a fight or early in the game because the teams are rivals or the foul situation is out of whack. I hear guys all the time come here and use all kinds of judgments to stay out of trouble and this in my opinion is no different.

Peace

Rut, that cuts both ways. I'm white and there have been many times where I have been the only white person involved in the game, and other times because of the area I live, that I've officiated all African-American teams versus all white or Mexican-American teams.

My high school partner is African-American and last year we were working a tournament game at a local Air Force base. This is one of the times where I was the only white person.

I had a call, went to report it and as I was moving back into position there comes a whistle from my partner. He had just T'd a player for suggesting my calls were being made for a "reason".

We are a team out there, and if having my partner's back means having to explain something to an assignor or a coach, so be it, but I'm not going to just adjust my calls to handle the kid, hoping he gets the message. The player will get the message, and then we will move on with the game.

I never told you how to handle these situations.
 

How many games do you work where you are the "only one" in the gym? If I decided to only work games where all the coaches, players and fans were of the same color, I would probably not work one game during the season. I am almost always the "only one" in the gym. It is extremely rare that I will ever work a game where everyone is of my race and color. So please do not tell me it cuts both ways. I live in a metropolitan area and I get tired of having to work the Black school vs. the white school games in certain conferences just because I am an African-American. I know many white officials that never see an all-Black team. Do not get me wrong, many times those Black players are some of the most talented in the area. I just do not like that I have to work those schools just because of the color of my skin.


Well all that is wonderful. And when you guys work your games you can handle those situations anyway you like. I never told you how to handle your games or what to call. I answered Dan's question to what I would do. When I am working and those situations are raised, I handle them the way I suggested and it works for me. Like Juulie says, I do not know the area you live. But around here, race is a constant backdrop to the games that are played. It is a constant topic of conversation with officials (in all the sports I work). It is something that we have to deal with regularly. If I T'd up every suggestion of a "reason" based on race, I would have more Ts called than the games I have worked in all my years I have been officiating.

Peace

Upon further review, after having a good night's sleep and also getting in touch with my feminine side, I'd still "T" the little sh*t up. Every time. No warning.

It's a racial comment and he's crapping on my partner(s). That's good enough for me.

And also, it's very, very easy to explain to anyone too. You just tell them that he made a racial comment and also crapped on your partner(s). It shouldn't be up to you to defend your actions. Let the little sh*t that made the comment defend HIS actions instead.

No, it is not. What was said to Dan is far, far worse.

Maybe it is to you, but it surely is not to me.

Peace

it boils my blood anytime ANYBODY plays the race card. If players, coaches and fans would just understand, we really don't care who wins the game.

IMO, the worst situation, is when the all black team is in black jerseys and the all white team is in white. Seems like a recipe for disaster.

My wife and I are white and we have fostered black children, it usually hurts when someone plays the race card either way.

Race is not a card, it is a reality.

Chris,

If you are going to raise children that are African-American, you have to understand that any mention of race is not an offensive issue. If it was, I would be offended anytime I walked out of the house. I am a younger looking person of color and when I officiate, players that are the same races as I am approach me in a way that signifies our race and culture. That not a card that is being played, that is the reality of the world we live in. The first thing people see is the color and shape of a person. That is the reality from the beginning of time up until right now. You are never going to eliminate all mentions of race, nor should you.

Peace

Rut, I'm with you, you'll never eliminate it all because some of the bad apples ruin it for the rest. 2 steps forwared, 1-3 steps back. My comments are an attempt to state that sometimes people get stereo-typed when others don't even know the real person. I'm not stating any new revelation and it can happen in any direction. This is reality in this world we live in but it would be nice if it didn't need to be brought into HS athletics, where sportsmanship "should" come first.

I STILL WANT TO KNOW HOW DAN HANDLED THE ORIGINAL SITUATION!!

Hush, Woman!

It's a good discussion and it ain't over yet. I know that there is an inherent and dominant feminine gene for nosiness, but try and restrain yourself anyway.

Re: I never told you how to handle these situations.
 

So when I have to deal with the same issues as you do, it's not the same, just because I'm white? That could not be more wrong.

If there are all African-American players on the floor and I'm working with an African-American partner, two things are certain.

One: It is assumed that I've never played the game, I don't understand the game, or the players.

Two: If the game is being lost and I have a call, it's because I'm a racist.

Now those things don't come up EVERY game, but they have come up many times over the years. In those games I have to prove myself every game, for one reason and one reason only, because of the color of my skin.

It most definitely cuts both ways.

Re: Re: I never told you how to handle these situations.
 

BZ -- This is something a lot of women deal with too, especially in boys ball, so I've felt it from the end of the person representing the traditionally oppressed group. I couldn't possibly have made that call from a position of competence and ability. It's not the same for men in girls ball, because they've been reffing all along and are reaching out from a position of traditional power and authority.

In the same way, a white ref in a black situation may feel some racial animosity directed at them, but it's nothing like what a black ref feels when race is an issue. I think you and I, as whites stepping into a black situation, feel like it cuts both ways. It is most assuredly not the same. I'm not saying you are a racist. You're not. And it's not okay for a black kid to assume you are. But that doesn't mean that you're being treated the same as Jeff gets treated when he's the black ref in a game between a white team and a black team. It's just not the same.

Re: Re: Re: I never told you how to handle these situations.
 

Juulie, I'm aware that I have not lived every aspect of my life where race may be an issue.

This debate has a racial aspect, but the main issue is are we supporting are partner by setting this player straight?

If I'm the white guy, I can't just wait and call some close ones on them and sit them down, to make a point that what they said was wrong.

As a woman, which way do you handle the "she's just a woman ref" issue? Do you do nothing to set them straight when the comment is made, only to call some boarderline fouls on them hoping to make your point, or do you take care of business?

To put it into context for the first post, how do you want your partner to handle it?

For me it's simple, we are a team. I'd have Rut's back, I'd have your back, I'd even have JR's back. :D

Re: Re: Re: Re: I never told you how to handle these situations.
 

Seems appropriate.

Don't know why...just does.

http://us.news2.yimg.com/us.yimg.com...lt-389x268.jpg

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: I never told you how to handle these situations.
 

It says blindZEBRA, not rhino. I can't speak for JR, however...:D

I'll tell you how he handled it...(OK, I'll guess how he handled it.)

He told the player that he would call what he sees...no matter who it is...and his partner would do the same.

He did this without a lot of fanfare and moved on.

...and Rich...are you kidding me? You said this was worse than using vulgar language? Not in my book...an actual verbage is worse, IMO, than an idiotic implied meaning.

Exactly!!!
 

I think Juulie got the point perfectly.

Peace

I've worked with partners of every color and gender in my career. One truth from all of those years is that bigots abound. Yet, it's often the way that the official handles the pressure and reacts to the challenge that nails him/her or endears him/her.

I've witnessed partners who were jeered for their skin color, gender, if he/she wore glasses, were overweight or bald. None of that mattered when they did their job and got the call right. One little slip and it was back to the gallows. I asked one of my partners how he handled all of the ribbing (he's Hawaiian, but is confused for Japanese). He gets all of the "Open your eyes!" comments he or we can stand. He told me that he just works harder. He knows that he will be taunted, but realizes that the only remedy is to be great. (He is and it makes all of us envious!)

The bottom line is how you handle the rhubarbs and slings. The best officials know how to deflect the criticism and react to the heat of the moment. The best officials recognize that the fan has a vested interest and something at stake - loyalty, pride and usually a paid admission. The players have even more at stake. They'll hate you and love you depending on how the calls are going. Were only as good as our last call. So you have a choice...work harder and remember that no matter how well you perform, someone will still think you're an a-hole. Or...internalize it and blow it off or burn out and cheat yourself. I choose to use it as fuel for the future. Nothing will kill them more than seeing you trot out there for the big game!

This subject has nothing to do with fans, it's about a player's comment.

I'm betting you saw Rut's name and wanted to take a shot.

Your comprehension skills, have once again betrayed you.

I'm not sure what to make of all this but I do not officiate to win the love & respect of fans, players or coaches. And for sure I'm not motivated by anything they say or do and I do not work to improve my game so that I "...will kill them [by] seeing you trot out there for the big game".

And I think that's true for most officials.

Anyway, for Juulie here's what happened. I really didn't think we needed a T at that point, so I took the young sprinkle aside and told him if he doesn't watch himself I could make his life quite uncomfortable by simply having a word with his coach about his inablity to accept diversity in his life. Well, not in exactly *those* words, but you get the drift (maybe without the tone ;) ). And to reinforce it the next time he touched the ball I found a travel. He got the message and an earful from his coach and we happily finished the game.

Com-pre-hen-sion...is that the art of being able to read and understand? Go ahead and ask someone, I'll wait.

I did not shoot at Rut. I may have many differences with him, but none involve racism or bigotry. I truly understand what he said and recognize that he HAS TO work harder because God made him darker than me. I just gave my insight and told what my partners did in that situation. I apologize if my sensitive side clouded your judgement.

is that directed at me?

This is your sensitive side?! Whew!! I'd like to ask you to skip the rough stuff, then.

Re: Re: Re: Re: I never told you how to handle these situations.
 

How to handle the kind of insinuation that Dan described varies from situation to situation. You're right that it's an issue for both the person to whom it's addressed, and for the partner. Dan's response was masterful and worked well. In a different setting, Jeff would have a different management style that would do just fine. Both would agree that the details aren't the point. Each situation has to be handled as seems best at that time.

When people imply that "I'm just a woman" I usually just shrug. I still have the authority in that game, and they still have to do what I say. So let 'em complain. Until they get to the vulgarities or profanities, then it's just a T. If they say something directly, I say, "Well, do you have any women teachers? Do you have a mother? Do you respect and obey them?" Or if they complain, as one did, "This isn't girls' ball!" I say, "No, it's not!" or "I noticed!" And in fact, those same kinds of tactics work well for me in race issues. But that's just me.

The point I was trying to make in my previous post, is that the prejudice that you or I may feel as whites is real and needs to be recognized and addressed. But it's not the same as what any black person feels. And it never will be.

Nope.
Gary responded to Blindzebra. :)
mick

.
 

How to handle the kind of insinuation that Dan described varies from situation to situation. You're right that it's an issue for both the person to whom it's addressed, and for the partner. Dan's response was masterful and worked well. In a different setting, Jeff would have a different management style that would do just fine. Both would agree that the details aren't the point. Each situation has to be handled as seems best at that time.

[/B][/QUOTE]How about me? You know? The guy that wants to unload the little sh*t?

Profanity is stupid and reactionary -- usually without any thought. Implying a cheating situation without profanity IS worse, in my opinion.

Re: .
 

How about me? You know? The guy that wants to unload the little sh*t? [/B][/QUOTE]

Yes, Woody, you're a very good little ref. (pat on the head) Now go play with your nice thorn bushes!

As a half-black woman officiating boys basketball, I am usually very much on my own in the gym. But because of that I've had to deal with a lot more crap from players and coaches, and I find now that I'm much less sensitive to comments from players than my partners are. In a situation like Dan's, I usually mention to the player that it seems they are questioning my integrity, which tends to result in a technical foul, and they usually get the message.

In my experience, I've found officials generally judge other officials by skill - not race, gender or some other category - but those in the minority do have to work harder to get to the top. But race, on the basketball court, is the topic which can cause problems to flare up faster than any other. For me, in the black school/white school games, it seems like I'm expected to be in favor of the black team, which has caused some technical fouls on the coaches of either team. But I will say, as far as racial comments go, coaches get no leeway from me. They should no better than to question an officials integrity, let alone involving race.

Hey, Sara, any woman on this board is very welcome by me, black or white! Let me ask you, in terms of how people treat you, do you think you get more respect from black male players and coaches than from white male players and coaches? I seldom if ever have trouble with black men, and I think it's because in the traditional black culture women get a lot more respect than they do in the traditional white culture. I had sort of concocted this theory on my own, and then I read an interview with Violet Palmer where she said the same thing. She can succeed in the NBA because so many of the players are black and they respect women in ways that white men dont tend to. Has that been your experience, Sara?

And, by the way, Sara, I see that you have 67 posts; but I haven't noticed you before. Is that because (a) you've been posting on another board, (b) you've been hiding behind your initials, or (c) I'm just dense?

Juulie,

That is a very interesting observation.

I think as a whole, Black people tend to not fall into those behaviors of discrimination the same way that non-whites I think do. In the Chicago Public League (mostly Black and Hispanic players and coaches) for example, there are several women that work Boy's basketball. Hardly anyone bats and eye to this or makes much of an issue out of it. But you would not even dare see that in conferences that are outside of the city.

Just look at the woman that worked the D1 Men's Tournament a few years back. She was the first women to ever work a tournament game and what conference did she come out of? The SWAC (or the MEAC, I just cannot remember for sure). She worked in a conference that is a conference of all predominately Black schools. The supervisor is a Black male and gave her an opportunity that she and no other women have really seen before or since.

On the basic topic in which you guys are currently discussing, I know that Black coaches tend to get more upset with me, mainly because they think I might be on their side and quickly realize I am not. But they never disrespect me for the most part or question my qualifications. I have been in several situations where white coaches have questioned my qualifications or my ability in ways that boarder on insulting. I had a coach one time write a letter to an assignor about a situation in which he had no idea what the rule was (I was right btw :D). In the letter this coach used these words, "I am writing this to make Mr. Rutledge a better official." Now my question has always been would he have done that to my white counterparts? Not so much the letter, but the tone of letter and the use of those words. I personally think not. BTW, my partners on this game were also African-American and I T'd him up because in his effort to challenge a trivial matter he yelled, "Read the rulebook, read the rulebook, read the rulebook." The opponent was an all African-American team and he probably never had been faced with that kind of situation.

Oh well, I guess that is just a day in the life.

Peace

Why am I not surprised?!

You are alright with me Juulie.
 

<a href='http://www.smileycentral.com/?partner=ZSzeb008_ZSzeb008' target='_blank'><img src='http://smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_12.gif' alt='Wink' border=0></a>

Peace

I have no comment on this; I'll just let it speak for itself.

Well Chuck,

I really do not what you could comment on. Because the last time I checked, I did not know of any people of color that can prevent you of doing much of anything you want to do in life. From just an officiating standpoint, I do not get games (and neither do you) get them from a bunch of minorities. ;)

Peace

Huh ?
 

JRut ,
I would like for you to explain what you are saying because I really don't understand what you mean . Are you saying that you are held back from doing certain things because you are black ? Are you saying that black people don't assign games ? I just don't undersatand what you are saying .

Really?
Tell that to OJ's ex-wife's family.

Then again, tell that to Scott Peterson's ex-wife's family.

There is good and bad in every race. IMO your broad generalization is somewhat overstated.

This is an issue that everyone faces to some degree. I don't want to get into who faces it more than others. Some face this issue way more than others and I believe there are several reasons for that:
1. Some will avoid situations where it could possibly arise.
2. Some will head straight toward these situations, and I believe they go looking for it.
3. Some people automatically assume it's there when it's really not.
4. Some people are just stupid and they think they're better than others.

Either way it goes, it's not right! Just be yourself and if people accept that, then good. If they don't, then they're not worth your time anyways.

Re: Huh ?
 

Yes.

Yes.

They do not on a very large scale. And the ones that do, you have to in my case either go directly and work for the Chicago Public system or if I wanted to work any college or major college, I would have to go to conferences that the schools are traditionally Black schools (Florida A&M or Bethun-Cookman).

Out of the all the games I have scheduled this season at the HS and college level, not one is assigned by a person of color or women. Not one.

So what are you saying?

Peace

OK, I have one for you.

Let us look at all the college football Head Coaching positions at the D1 level (about 118) and see how many Black head coaches are out of that number? Then tell me how many of those schools have African-American Presidents and African-American Athletic Directors? Then tell me why there are only about 4 Head coaches at the D1 level coaching a sport in which the kids that look like them literally dominate the sport. So you are telling me that all the Pro Hall of Fame players and well known athletes that have gone through all these programs whether they are in the deep south to the far west, you cannot find at the very least 10-12% of the coaching positions in a sport where people of color have dominated?

Now out of all those D1 conferences, how many of them have African-Americans as the supervisor of officials?

Now I am not talking about jobs in the larger society. I am only talking about a part of society where opportunity and talent can be proven on the field or in an arena. Where folks of color can prove they are the fastest, the strongest or the most successful by what they literally do on the field and you cannot find more than 4 African-Americans to coach a sport where in many cases 70% of the football team is African-American? Now what part of a generalization am I talking about?

Peace

Know what? If you woulda just "T"ed up the little sh*t and then forgot about it, you wouldn't have had 5 pages of trying to fix the world's woes.

Sometimes the worst thing that you can do out on the court is try to over-think whatinthehell you're doing and what your job really is. Imo, this situation is a prime example of that. Obviously, Dan's solution worked for Dan too. That's the bottom line, no matter what.

This was exactly why I quoted Rut's comment above. Thanks, Rook.

I thought what Rut was saying was that the black culture doesn't discriminate against women as much as the white culture. I know this seems like a stereotype, but it's not. It doesn't talk about individuals or the specific feelings one gives or receives from other individuals. It talks about the culture. In the white culture, there is still quite a lot of residual discrimination against women. There may be plenty of individuals that don't have those feelings, but the overall atmosphere and pattern is for women to be held back, or oppressed. That isn't nearly as true in the black culture. Traditionally, the black woman has received much mre respect, and holds much more authority than the white woman does. Does that mean that each black person respects all women more than each white person respects all women? Of course not. But the overall atmosphere in the society of black people is that in general, women have more standing and receive more respect. That's a broad generalization, and a simplification, but it's not a stereotype or a racist remark -- it is a sociological observation.

Juulie,

Black culture? White culture? Did someone kick all the Asians, Hispanics & other assorted mutts out of the country while I wasn't looking? And what society have you been observing that leads you to believe that there is *A* black culture and *A* white culture?

Juulie,

Right on.

Peace

Oh, for Pete's sake, Dan, just because I'm being simplistic doesn't mean you can be. There isn't A black culture or A white culture, just as there isn't AN American culture. There are tendencies and they are real. Would you be happier if I called them sub-cultures or communities? Asians and Hispanics have their communities, too, as do Greeks and Italians in some parts of America. Then there are Catholic and Jewish sub-cultures, and yes, a couple or three Quaker communities, a gay subculture, a Southern subculture. I wasn't being reductionistic, just thinking that I didn't need to be defining each word. Maybe my sociology isn't as mainstream as I thought.

Nope.

I would be happier if you just didn't make overly broad and simplistic statements that paint entire swaths of people with the same brush.

That would make me happy. :)

Then move to Iraq. Move to China or even parts of Africa. Then you will not have to worry about what the different people do and behave based on race and ethnicity. Now you might have some social cultural differences and tribal differences to deal with, but it would not offend you in any way.

I know one thing, African-Americans did not vote for Bush. And their feeling about the man has nothing to do with who he puts in his cabinet. ;)

Peace

Nope.

I would be happier if you just didn't make overly broad and simplistic statements that paint entire swaths of people with the same brush.

That would make me happy. :)

[/B][/QUOTE]

Okay, bad wording. I really didn't get enough sleep last night for reasons having to do with various diseases, drugs, and a certain 6-year-old. So if I sound a little crusty here, it's just an exaggeration of the impatience I start to feel when someone doesn't understand what I'm trying to say. I'm not talking about "broad swaths of individuals." You know as well as I do that "society", "culture", "structure" or whatever you call it exists separate from any individual or even separate from many individuals. There are certain statements that can be made that lump people together into a group, but don't stereotype the individual. To use a very large example, Suppose you see someone at the dinner table who holds his fork in one hand, his knife in the other, and never puts either down during the meal. He pushes his food onto the back of the fork to convey it to his mouth, and he cuts his meat without switching the fork from one hand to the other. You would suspect that this person was European. Does that mean that everyone in Europe eats like this? Of course not. But there is a cultural tendency that way. Americans handle their utensils differently. All Americans? Naturally not. But the tendency is there. That's the kind of principle I'm applying when I talk about black culture and white culture. Can we agree on the principle of cultural trends, even if we might disagree about what the content of tjpse trends are?

"Move to Iraq....." please tell me you didn't just say that .
Do you mean to tell me that not one black person voted for Bush ??? I didn't realize we voted as a color...not did I realize that you are the annointed spokesman for all black people .
I understand that you may have some issues in your area but as Dan mentioned , please don't use a roller when painting (Sorry Dan I added my own twist).

Jeff, please take this within the spirit it is intended: go f@ck yourself.

Heck...I just figgered' I was being a lazy redneck!

Thanks, Ms. rainmaker, now I can claim European upbringing! ;)

I will keep it to officiating for a second.

Name one white official that has facial hair at the D1 or pro levels of any league?

I cannot name one.

Guess what, I can name several African-Americans that do.

Johnny Grier--NFL (there is another Black Referee or White hat that has a mustache; I just do not know his name right now).

Steve Paman--Big Ten Football

Danny Crawford--NBA

Tom Rucker--D1 Official retired

Donny Gray--D1 Basketball Official, Big Ten, ACC and Conference USA to name a few.

(There is even one in the Big East, but I do not know his name)

Now would someone tell me that there is not something there based on culture? Now as an African-American, most of the Black males I know have some type of facial hair regardless of profession and economic status. Now why is that? Could it be that facial hair does not come with the stigma or societal issues in the African-American community that it seems to be in the larger society of non-whites?

I am sure you can find someone that is African-American that likes Rock and Roll music and thinks groups like KISS and Led Zeppelin were the best band ever. But most of the African-Americans that I come in contact with on a very regular basis seem to like 50 Cent, Ludacris or older groups like the O'Jays, Patty Labelle, Teddy Pendergrass and Smokey Robinson. I am sure there are all kinds of people that like both of these types of music, but it seems that African-Americans are drawn much more to Hip Hop and R&B than they ever will to a group like Aerosmith. Maybe we are all the same in our values and expectations for our lives and what we believe in, but I have yet to see people of my culture rely on what the larger society thinks is good music, food or values. You can always find an exception to a rule, but it is called an exception for a very good reason. ;)

Peace