Washington State Interpretation Mtg.

[GarthB]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

She didn't say either side was full of "reasonable, intelligent and mature people?" Each had at least two. I'll name them.....

hmmmm....

I'll have to get back to you on the names.

I'm glad someone got it Camron. It apparently went over Rainmakers head...emoticon and all.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by GarthB
I'm glad someone got it Camron. It apparently went over Rainmakers head...emoticon and all.

Yea, I'm being obtuse. But I really wasn't joking about people being on opposite sides of something and still being able to respect each other. It ought to happen a lot more than it does.

[mick]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Yea, I'm being obtuse. But I really wasn't joking about people being on opposite sides of something and still being able to respect each other. It ought to happen a lot more than it does.

Jewel,
GarthB has a very wry and dry wit.
mick

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by mick

Jewel,
GarthB has a very wry and dry wit.
mick

And I usually like it dry, but I haven't been myself lately. Life's getting a little too serious these days. I'll just have to stick to whacking trolls, and trying to mollify coaches.

[totalnewbie]

I love this discussion.

[ducks]

Seriously. As a new official, I love finding things that were totally 100% legal "back in the day" (tm) when I played ball that are now not legal. I make a note of them. I find it very helpful. And I like to hear the discussion about why.

"Back in the day" (tm) we were taught that the Cardinal rule of defense was "dont let your man go baseline." I cant tell you how many times that was drilled into my head. And part of "not letting your man go baseline" was stomping your foot on the endline so he didnt have any wiggle room. Not only was that legal, it was a good idea. Not only was it a good idea, it was preached up and down as "the best way to meet your cardinal obligation of not letting your guy go baseline."

Now as I begin my career as a ref I need to know that not only is it not a good idea it is in fact illegal. According to the NFHS Rules Interpretations it is an automatic block if there is contact (or so it appears to my rookie review of the rules and your experienced views here).

Wierd.

Thinking as a player only, I personally like the idea that it is legal to step on the end line. It is the "sixth defender" idea. I personally dont view the advantage of stepping on the end line as drastic an advantage as an offensive player leaving the inbounds area to go around a pick for instance. YMMV.

It will be interesting to see how my view of play changes as I learn to be an official. I am looking forward to that dynamic.

But for now I chalk this little fact (that stepping on the end line means it is a block) up in the same place with the fact that lifting your foot from the lane is "defeating the rule" and is NOT enough to end a 3-second count, which was as much an offensive staple "back in the day" (tm) as stepping on the end line was a defensive staple.

Did you all have similar experiences when you first started officiating? Things you did that were legal/illegal that when you started reffing were no longer legal/illegal?

Clark

[mick]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Jewel,
GarthB has a very wry and dry wit.
mick

And I usually like it dry, but I haven't been myself lately. Life's getting a little too serious these days. I'll just have to stick to whacking trolls, and trying to mollify coaches. [/B][/QUOTE]

Hang in and hold on.

[Rich]

Originally posted by totalnewbie
I love this discussion.

[ducks]

Seriously. As a new official, I love finding things that were totally 100% legal "back in the day" (tm) when I played ball that are now not legal. I make a note of them. I find it very helpful. And I like to hear the discussion about why.

"Back in the day" (tm) we were taught that the Cardinal rule of defense was "dont let your man go baseline." I cant tell you how many times that was drilled into my head. And part of "not letting your man go baseline" was stomping your foot on the endline so he didnt have any wiggle room. Not only was that legal, it was a good idea. Not only was it a good idea, it was preached up and down as "the best way to meet your cardinal obligation of not letting your guy go baseline."

Now as I begin my career as a ref I need to know that not only is it not a good idea it is in fact illegal. According to the NFHS Rules Interpretations it is an automatic block if there is contact (or so it appears to my rookie review of the rules and your experienced views here).

Wierd.

Thinking as a player only, I personally like the idea that it is legal to step on the end line. It is the "sixth defender" idea. I personally dont view the advantage of stepping on the end line as drastic an advantage as an offensive player leaving the inbounds area to go around a pick for instance. YMMV.

It will be interesting to see how my view of play changes as I learn to be an official. I am looking forward to that dynamic.

But for now I chalk this little fact (that stepping on the end line means it is a block) up in the same place with the fact that lifting your foot from the lane is "defeating the rule" and is NOT enough to end a 3-second count, which was as much an offensive staple "back in the day" (tm) as stepping on the end line was a defensive staple.

Did you all have similar experiences when you first started officiating? Things you did that were legal/illegal that when you started reffing were no longer legal/illegal?

Clark

Well, my first season was the first year a shot could count for 3-points. But I guess that dates me a bit.

I can't believe this topic has dragged on this long, but your post makes it clearer for me why the NFHS has come down so hard on the "foot on the baseline." There should be no reason for a defender to have to gain an unfair advantage in this way -- the player with the ball cannot go out of bounds and neither should the defender. It is possible to seal off the baseline without putting half a body out of bounds, but more difficult. Why give the defender an advantage not intended by the rules?

I live in a state where it was mentioned as a clarification by the NFHS and where there was absolutely no discussion about the change -- coaches and officials said nothing as this change was mentioned. To be honest, I can't remember the last time I called a PC foul in this situation, but then again, I never really had to study the feet until this season

Regarding lifting the foot and the 3-second violation, if you need to split this hair, pass on the call unless it screams out to you and everyone else. You'll find that there is quite a bit of judgment involved in calling this violation -- and quite a few people screaming from the benches and stands that don't understand the rule, either.

--Rich

[totalnewbie]

Oh I dont plan to make that "lift the foot 3 second call" my spotlight call of the night. I was just commenting that I have now learned that that trick is illegal when "back in the day" (tm) it was perfectly acceptable. Which is all part of my learning process.

Clark

[cmathews]

Originally posted by totalnewbie

Thinking as a player only, I personally like the idea that it is legal to step on the end line. It is the "sixth defender" idea.


I personally dont view the advantage of stepping on the end line as drastic an advantage as an offensive player leaving the inbounds area to go around a pick for instance. YMMV.

you consider it a sixth man yet it isn't that big of an advantage. LOL honestly that first statement is the best point as of yet.."It is the "sixth defender" idea." If that isn't an advantage gained I don't know what is.. By the way Newbie, welcome to the board. There are lots of good discussions here.

[totalnewbie]

Thanks!

I'm just saying as a player I dont see it as a problem. Using the sideline to aid your defense happens all the time--the division line once they enter front court, the side line, the end line. Those are all considered "6th defenders" and are all totally legal. Stepping on the line isnt that much more than what is already allowed. Thats all I was saying.

I wasnt saying that stepping on the line gives you a 6th defender--the court already is the 6th defender. Or at least that was an old defensive priciple we were taught "back in the day." (tm) which is why you see so many traps near the division line and when the ball goes to the side--because two defenders use the line as an additional defender. It is an efficient use of defensive man power.

Back to my main point--I like knowing about things that were legal when I played are now illegal. That is important for me to know as a new ref. And it will also be interesting to see how my view of things changes as I go from "ex-player" to "official."

Clark

[coachz_216]

total newbie brings up an interesting point---

Once the offensive team establishes team control in the FC, isn't the next logical step to say that a defensive player isn't allowed to step into the backcourt when guarding an offensive player near the division line? It isn't legal for the offensive player to step across that line when dribbling--certainly we shouldn't allow the defender to step into the backcourt and still maintain legal guarding position...

Just thinking...

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by coachz_216

Just thinking...

Don't confuse us!!

[cmathews]

Originally posted by coachz_216
total newbie brings up an interesting point---

Once the offensive team establishes team control in the FC, isn't the next logical step to say that a defensive player isn't allowed to step into the backcourt when guarding an offensive player near the division line? It isn't legal for the offensive player to step across that line when dribbling--certainly we shouldn't allow the defender to step into the backcourt and still maintain legal guarding position...

Just thinking...

LOL ok thats in lets go back to the old style...three players on each team in each half of the court, no dribbling....LOL

[coachz_216]

Originally posted by cmathews

LOL ok thats in lets go back to the old style...three players on each team in each half of the court, no dribbling....LOL

...and how about a center jump after every made basket!...

[cmathews]

the center jump after every made basket takes up too much time lets just go AP every time LOL