3/10ths question

[Nevadaref]

This is a question from our study guide which has generated a lot of discussion. I thought that I would share it here.

A1 is inbounding the ball with 3/10-of-a-second remaining on the game clock. A1 inbounds the ball to A5 who catches the ball and while attempting a try for goal is fouled by B5 for Team B's 8th team foul of the half. The official calls a foul on B5 and awards A5: (a) Two free throws. (b) A one-and-one bonus situation.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
This is a question from our study guide which has generated a lot of discussion. I thought that I would share it here.

A1 is inbounding the ball with 3/10-of-a-second remaining on the game clock. A1 inbounds the ball to A5 who catches the ball and while attempting a try for goal is fouled by B5 for Team B's 8th team foul of the half. The official calls a foul on B5 and awards A5: (a) Two free throws. (b) A one-and-one bonus situation.

By rule you can not catch and shoot, so I can't see how you can have a shooting foul in that situation. If the contact occurred before the horn, I'd say you could have a common foul...if you had the guts to call it.

[Camron Rust]

A. Shoot two. Player was in the act of shooting a live ball at the time of the foul.

The rule, IIRC, says that the try can't be counted. It doesn't say it can't be a try.

Just to add a little logic to my position aside from whatever the rule may say....

Consider that, for B5 to foul A1 in that time interval, the immenent contact must have been apparent before A1 caught the ball. Perhaps A1 was attempting to tap the ball but the expected crash from B5 made him reflexively grab the ball instead.

Now that I've gone to check my book...

Rule 5-2-5
When play is resumed with a throw-in or free throw and three-tenths (.3) of a second or less remains on the clock, no field goal may be scored if the ball is caught before the try for goal. In this situation a tap could score.

Note that this rule implicity defines the action we're talking about as a try. The definition of try says that it is merely an attempt to score.

The .3 second rule is meant to declare the ball dead before it leaves the players hands...ending the try...not that its not a try.

[Ref in PA]

Interesting debate. .3 seconds on the clock. NFHS rules.

A1 catches the inbounds pass and starts his shooting motion which the referee knows the made basket cannot count by rule because of insufficient time. However, B1 immediately fouls A1.

So to recap the play you have:

1. inbounds catch by A1;
2. A1 begins shooting motion;
3. B1 fouls A1;
4. Ref recognizes the foul;
5. Whistle blows;
6. Horn blows; (5 and 6) could be in reverse order)
7. A1 releases shot;
8. Ball goes in.

The call I will sell:
1. Cancel basket - release was after the horn. By definition you do not have enough time catch and shoot.
2. Since the foul by B1 was recognized before time expired you would penalize the foul.
3. A1 was in the act of shooting a shot, therefore, clear the lane and A1 shoots 2 (or 3 if behind the arc).

[Kelvin green]

Here is where I disagree.

You cannot catch the ball and attempt a shot in .3
By rule .3 must expire on a catch (personally I think you can get a shot off in .3 becuase you see NBA guys do it)

If it appeared it would be a tap for a try I believe you could have the foul on a shot..

I think the rule is pretty clear that if the ball is caught before the try there is no goal. Tells me there is no try when ball is caught and you cannot shoot 2.

The catch itself is .3. He cannot be in shooting motion when he is catching the ball. If he catches then shoots. There can be no shot since the catch kills the time. You cannot have the sequence of events. in .4 or greater Yes you can.

I think if there is a foul here it is a common foul...

[Jimgolf]

How about c) Inadvertant whistle, game over?

Seriously, though, if the rule states that the try has ended by the catch, then you no longer have a try, so common foul, one-and-one. If it's before the catch, then it's a common foul anyway (unless the clock was stopped for a foul, then false double foul?), so you still go to one-and-one bonus.

[cmathews]

The rule doesn't say that the try ends by the catch, it says it can't score. Look at it this way, erase the .3 seconds. A1 is dribbling sees time running down, starts the shooting motion, gets hacked and the horn goes off before the ball leaves his hands. The official makes the call what are we going to do? I say we are shooting 2, and with that logic I say we are shooting 2 in the original situation.

[Ref in PA]

Here is where I disagree.

You cannot catch the ball and attempt a shot in .3
By rule .3 must expire on a catch (personally I think you can get a shot off in .3 becuase you see NBA guys do it)

Read the rule again 5-2-5. It just says no basket may be scored. It says nothing about attempting a shot or begining the shooting motion. The rule is stating that the ball cannot leave the hand after a catch with .3 or less on the clock.

Are we bailing out Team A to call it this way? No. Team B bailed out Team A with idiotic defense.

If it appeared it would be a tap for a try I believe you could have the foul on a shot..

I think the rule is pretty clear that if the ball is caught before the try there is no goal. Tells me there is no try when ball is caught and you cannot shoot 2.

The catch itself is .3. He cannot be in shooting motion when he is catching the ball. If he catches then shoots. There can be no shot since the catch kills the time. You cannot have the sequence of events. in .4 or greater Yes you can.

I think if there is a foul here it is a common foul...

You are saying in .4 seconds you can have the catch, start and finish of the shooting motion and release of the ball. I agree. But in .3 seconds you can only have a catch??? There's an awful lot going on in the .1 second. In your interpretation you have the start and finish of a shooting motion. I think all the book is saying is that with .3 or less that shooting motion does not have time to finish (ie. the ball being released). Even with more time on the clock there is no guarantee that A1 will be able to catch, start and finish the shooting motion before time expires.

I still think there is time to start the shooting motion with .3 on the clock, but the shooter will never get the shot off in time. I also think that there is no guarantee that A1 will have begun his/her shooting motion before time expires. I a just saying there is time to start the try before time expires (just not enough time to finish the try).

[coachz_216]

I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the principles of continuous motion would indicate that a person could be fouled in the act of shooting in .3 seconds which would result in a two shot foul. By rule, the basket can't be counted (because the rules committee, in their infinite wisdom, has determined that a shot can't be caught, started, released in less than .3 s), but it certainly seems to me that there is an opportunity to call a 2 shot foul. (although putting the player on the line to shoot a bonus is probably a safer/less controversial call!)

[mdray]

from the 1996-1997 rulebook -- see caseplay 5.2.5 -- it states that since A1 cannot try for goal & score when resuming play with 3/10 second or less on the clock, A1 cannot be fouled in the act of shooting. I've not seen a caseplay in any subsequent year that changed this ruling.

[Edited by mdray on Nov 10th, 2004 at 08:15 PM]

[BktBallRef]

mdray is correct. Since a try for goal is not possible, it's not possible for the player to be fouled in the act of shooting. The reason a try cannot be scored is because a try cannot be attempted. If a try can't be attempted, he can't be in the act of shooting, which makes it a common foul.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by mdray
from the 1996-1997 rulebook -- see caseplay 5.2.5 -- it states that since A1 cannot try for goal & score when resuming play with 3/10 second or less on the clock, A1 cannot be fouled in the act of shooting. I've not seen a caseplay in any subsequent year that changed this ruling.

[Edited by mdray on Nov 10th, 2004 at 08:15 PM]

The 1996-97 NFHS Casebook Play is still in effect, but there is a Situation that is in the current NFHS Casebook Play that applies to a player being fouled while tapping a ball with 0.3 of a seconds on the game clock. It is Casebook Play 5.2.5 Situation B.

MTD, Sr.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

The 1996-97 NFHS Casebook Play is still in effect, but there is a Situation that is in the current NFHS Casebook Play that applies to a player being fouled while tapping a ball with 0.3 of a seconds on the game clock. It is Casebook Play 5.2.5 Situation B.

MTD, Sr.

Correct. If the situation we're discussing had been a tap, the foul would have resulted in FTs, since a tap is possible. A try is not.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
mdray is correct. Since a try for goal is not possible, it's not possible for the player to be fouled in the act of shooting. The reason a try cannot be scored is because a try cannot be attempted. If a try can't be attempted, he can't be in the act of shooting, which makes it a common foul.

Gee, I answered first in this thread, so I guess I can make the proper interpretations.

Or is that just if I agree with you.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
The .3 second rule is meant to declare the ball dead before it leaves the players hands...ending the try...not that its not a try.

The answer provided with our study guide gives almost this rationale. With the exception of the dead ball part.
The controlling rule here is:

4-40-4 The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain that throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

Because of 5-2-5 we can be certain that the try is unsuccessful as soon as the ball is caught. This means that the try has ended. Therefore, the foul is not during the act of shooting, but after it. Hence, a common foul is the correct call, if the foul occurs before the horn sounds. Shoot the proper bonus.

Thanks to mdray for providing the case play from 1996-97. I only have books back to 2001-02. It disappoints me that the NFHS chose to discontinue printing this case play. I can only wonder why.