Confused? You bet I am!

[Roy G]

One challenge I find in officiating is that things can be going along just fine, and then all confusion all the time.

Lat night, I was officiating at a fall high school pre-season game. All was going smoothly when it happened. A1 was going through the lane, and B1 pushed him from behind. As I was blowing the whistle, A1 turned around and gave B1 a short right to the head. Tweet again, and a flagrant T on A1.

Then the confusion began. I turned my back to the play, as I finally had an Ejection. BIG MISTAKE.

As I was reporting the fouls, my partner comes over and says he has a T, too. On B1 for shoving A1 again after he got slugged.

Now, the real confusion began. What penalties do we apply?

To review, B foul, A Ejection T and B reaction T.

Who shoots, who gets the ball?

And, what is this situation called ?

Thanks

Roy in NJ

[Grail]

A must subsitute for A1 to shoot the initial foul (I'm assuming it was a shooting foul). A1 and B1 are gone, offsetting technical fouls. No shots.

[jritchie]

shooting or not shooting when A1 was pushed from behind???
what kind of foul did you call?? (common, intentional?)

if A1 was shooting and you called a common foul on B1, then the double flagrant technical,
Get subs for ejected players A1,B1
Everyone off the line, while sub for A1 shoots ft's
possesion arrow throw in at center line..

NCAA ejection of two players, go back to point of interruption with sub shooting free throws right???

[gordon30307]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Roy G
[B]One challenge I find in officiating is that things can be going along just fine, and then all confusion all the time.

Lat night, I was officiating at a fall high school pre-season game. All was going smoothly when it happened. A1 was going through the lane, and B1 pushed him from behind.

Intentional foul on B1


As I was blowing the whistle, A1 turned around and gave B1 a short right to the head. Tweet again, and a flagrant T on A1.

Flagrant T A1 ejected

Then the confusion began. I turned my back to the play, as I finally had an Ejection. BIG MISTAKE.

As I was reporting the fouls, my partner comes over and says he has a T, too. On B1 for shoving A1 again after he got slugged.

Flagrant T B1 ejected.

Now, the real confusion began. What penalties do we apply?

To review, B foul, A Ejection T and B reaction T.

Who shoots, who gets the ball?

Lane is cleared Sub for A1 shoots. T's offset Give team A the ball spot throw in nearest foul. Note I never have had this happen to me. If I had this situation this what I would do. Is this correct as I outlined it?

And, what is this situation called ?

It's called a @#$%*@# play.

[SamIAm]

I don't see the two Ts as simultaneous.
Shoot them both after the shooting foul, then give the ball to A for the last T on B.

[rwest]

The rule book says that a double technical is a

"situation in which two opponents commit technical fouls against each other at approximately the same time".

My question is how much time must transpire before we consider them separate fouls and not double or simultaneous fouls? Is the time between the shot to the head by A1 and the push by B1 enough time to consider them separate?

[jritchie]

ONE CAUSED THE OTHER.... CONSIDER IT A FIGHT AND KICK BOTH THERE BUTTS OUT... SHOOT THE FIRST TWO THROWS AND USE THE ARROW!!!

[Goose]

Roy this is in no way a condemnation or hack, but.....

Given what you stated, and if it were me, I would be upset that after the first swing, we/I did not do a better job at stopping the second. I would ask, why weren't you or your partner in there after the first contact? Maybe you were, but from your description, it appears that the second blow was well after the initial play seeing that you had already felt comfortable in turning your back and reporting the foul.

Or do you think you might have turned your back a tad early?

Look, I realize that crap happens and that no matter how careful we are, we still can't prevent this stuff from happening 100 percent of the time. But I also have to ask, where was your partner? It's good that he got the other swing, but I would have to ask why weren't one of you two in there to get things settled?

I won't say never, but I never leave a potential fight situation until all parties are at peace, so to speak. The foul(s) can wait. Maybe, just maybe you were a tad early in wanting to report the foul. That is unless these two swings were at just about the same time where you or your partner could not have stepped inbetween.

Sorry if this has sounded judgmental because it was not meant that way. I'm sure you did what you thought was right at the time, but I know after stuff like this happens, I always reflect on not only how it happened but what could I have do to prevent the retaliation.

I guess I wasn't much help. Just an observation. But from your description, I would say, take the foul, and treat the swings as a double T.

goose

[FrankHtown]

If you want to step between two 6'5" guys, be my guest. I'm backing out and taking numbers.

[Back In The Saddle]

Reading Goose's post has brought a question to my mind? What is the best way to handle this?

What comes to mind is to escort A1 off the floor. That gets him out of the area and makes it really hard for him to retaliate.

Also, if you're working 2-whistle and a fight breaks out, you want the closest guy in there and the other guy taking numbers. But what about after the closest guy has gone to the table? Does the other guy need to come into the area then, just to make sure no further hostilities break out?

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by FrankHtown
If you want to step between two 6'5" guys, be my guest. I'm backing out and taking numbers.

I think what Goose was trying to say is this. You have the push from behind. Call the foul and get on the court and take charge of the situation. His partner should have immediately got there as well to help out. A show of force so to speak may have eliminated the pushing and shoving. The end result being a peronal or intentional foul and no T's.

I agree if two players start fighting get the coaches out there to break it up.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by rwest
how much time must transpire before we consider them separate fouls and not double or simultaneous fouls? Is the time between the shot to the head by A1 and the push by B1 enough time to consider them separate?

My general rule of thumb is: if i have time to spit the whistle out and have to put it back in to call the second foul, they're not simultaneous. If they happen so closely together that the whistle never leaves my mouth, it's a double foul (or simultaneous).

That's not a hard and fast rule, but it seems to work for me.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Goose
I won't say never, but I never leave. . .

Uh, Goosey, you got some 'splainin' to do!

[SamIAm]

I like that part about spitting the whistle out chuck. My initial thought was that if you could not tell which occurred first, it is simultaneous, if you can tell which occurred first, they are not simultaneous.

[gordon30307]

Originally posted by SamIAm
I like that part about spitting the whistle out chuck. My initial thought was that if you could not tell which occurred first, it is simultaneous, if you can tell which occurred first, they are not simultaneous.

Good point, however don't you think where you have a push then the other guy hestitates and pushes back that you're better off "considering them simultaneous" and resuming play with the arrow to simplify matters and getting on with the game?