A 2-10 toughie

[Nevadaref]

With 15 seconds remaining in the 4th quarter Team A has the ball trailing by 2. A1 attempts a 2 point try with 10 seconds remaining. While the try is in the air, A2 near the basket excessively swings elbows. The official calls a violation, but counts the goal when A1's try enters the basket. Team B inbounds and the coach has his team dribble out the clock without even attempting a try. Following the period ending horn, Team B's coach goes to the table and requests a TO to discuss a correctable error. He claims that the official erroneously counted the last score.

What would you do?

[BoomerSooner]

First we have to determine if this situation even allows for a correctable error. I'm always open to being corrected, but I'm pretty sure this is an applicable case. The ball had not been made live after the first dead ball following the "erroneous" score. Next we have to decide if it was actually an erroneously awarded score. I'm leaning toward saying it was, and therefore this situation sounds like a correctable error. Take the points off the board and call it a game. There is no rule that says a coach that knows the rules can't take advantage of them.

[ChuckElias]

I'm with Boomer. Obviously falls under 2-10, obviously within the correctable time frame. Cancel the basket and hit the shower.

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
With 15 seconds remaining in the 4th quarter Team A has the ball trailing by 2. A1 attempts a 2 point try with 10 seconds remaining. While the try is in the air, A2 near the basket excessively swings elbows. The official calls a violation, but counts the goal when A1's try enters the basket. Team B inbounds and the coach has his team dribble out the clock without even attempting a try. Following the period ending horn, Team B's coach goes to the table and requests a TO to discuss a correctable error. He claims that the official erroneously counted the last score.

What would you do?

Cancel and move on.

Probably for a brown pop.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by JugglingReferee
Cancel and move on.

Probably for a brown pop.

Agreed. As I've said before, the 2-10 rules are such that you can never be sure exactly which team will benefit, so *both* coaches need to watch for the situation.

Team A, in the play at hand, might have thought it "got away with one". As it turns out, they should have "done the right thing" and requested the points be taken off before B put the ball in play.

[Grail]

Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I believe that if the try was alredy in the air, it is viewed seperately from the violation. If the violation by the shooting team occurs before the try is launched it would cancel the shot.

The situation is correctable, but in this case I think the ref got it right.

[LarryS]

OK...I've been off the floor for a bit, but why would this shot not count? The ball was in the air when the call was made.

I may be very wrong...things get fuzzy after a lay off and I'm still waiting on my books to start studying. May be stupid question #1...or is that stupid person asking question #1?

[jritchie]

in rule 9-13 penalty says "ball is dead when violation occurs and is given to opponent for throw in", but also has EXCEPTION, SEE 6-7-9 exception 4 which says "ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends when excessively swinging arms/elbows violation occurs" so i would take that as saying the ref counted the basket correctly!!!

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Grail
Perhaps I'm mistaken, but I believe that if the try was alredy in the air, it is viewed seperately from the violation.

Originally posted by LarryS
OK...I've been off the floor for a bit, but why would this shot not count? The ball was in the air when the call was made.

6-7 Excp 4 refers to a violation "by an opponent". Since this wsan't by an opponent, the ball becomes dead immediately upon the violation.

9.13.1 contains the exact play.

[jritchie]

my bad, it does say if opponent commits violation basket would still be good!!!! but if it's a team mate, then ball IS DEAD AT THE POINT OF VIOLATION....

[LarryS]

Duh...Ok, maybe if I would read carefully I would keep straight who committed the violation. Maybe I need more coffee.

[Adam]

The fascinating thing in this, for me, is that A gets penalized more here than if A2 just pushed B2 out of the way while the ball was in the air.

Offensive foul while ball in the air, basket counts.
Offensive violation while ball in the air, no basket.

BTW, has anyone actually called an elbow violation on a player without the ball?

[rwest]

I understand that excessively swinging the elbow during a try is a violation and if committed by a team mate the goal does not count. But why is this different than when a foul occurs during the same play? We count the basket when a foul is committed. What's the logic behind this?

A foul in my opinion is more severe. Suppose A2 committed a flagrant foul while the ball was in flight. We count the basket. But when A2 excessively swings his arms and does not make contact, but we call a violation, we wipe away the points?!?!?!

I just don't understand the reasoning behind this.

[jritchie]

maybe they are saying since it's a violation (kind of like traveling or 3 seconds) if the ball is in the air it doesn't matter, you still have no basket... but on a foul, the ball is in the air it can still count....don't know for sure, but it sounded good at the time..

[rwest]

But it still does not make sense to have a rule that would penalize a team more when a violation occurs than when a foul is committed. In this limited scenario it would have been better if the player had push the defender. At least then the basket would have counted and if not in the bonus and not deemed a flagrant or intentional foul, team B wouldn't even get a free throw. Just ball out of bounds at the spot of the foul.