Hey ref18,
Could I get on the list? [email protected]
Thanks.

Any way you could add me to the list also? Thanks.

Any way you could add me to the list? Thanks.

[email protected]

Canadian Ruling
 

I don't know what the list is for, but I would like to be on it.

Julian, I think you have my home e-mail address. :)

Please add me on the list.
[email protected]

If this list is for what I think it's for, please add me also.

[email protected]

What is this "list" for?

If I'm correct, then the list is for the answers to this years Fed test.

I don't need any moral crusades going on, so please, if you don't think I should be giving it out, don't ask for it.

Other than that, I've sent it to everyone above this post.

If you would like it, feel free to send me an e-mail.

BTW, if anyone needs them I've also got the quesetions.

Ref 18, Could I get on the list also.
Thanks

Sure but i need an e-mail address

I would like to get the questions.
Thanks,
[email protected]

Me Too!!!
 

do you know that you have every question right? if you do add me to the list, i have about 10 question that i was unsure about. thanks
[email protected]

I would be a great way for me to start my refresher work...please send me the questions and answers.

[email protected]

If you've given me an e-mail address before 12:08 EST, check your inbox

request
 

hi ref18....

i'm the new kid on the block. would you send me answers...and add me to your list.



[Edited by imaref on Nov 15th, 2004 at 04:09 PM]

Me too
 

Can you send me a copy to [email protected]?

Me too
 

Please send me a copy to [email protected]

Me too
 

Send me a copy please -

[email protected]

I've gotten everyone who sent me an e-mail or posted before 8:14EST

Can I get a copy?

[email protected]

You fell into the category of my last mailing.

Please add me to the list...Night be a litttle late as I have already sent my test in. but what the hay!!!

please send the questions and answers.

Thanks

add me to the list please

[email protected]

I've gotten everyone who's provided me with an e-mail address so far. If you want the test and the answers, i need an address to send them to.

Please send to [email protected]

Ref 18

Please add me to list.
[email protected]

thanks

Next year, we go from FIBA to NFHS. I'd like to see what the questions and answers look like. Send the list to [email protected]. Thanks

Please send me Questions and answers. I took the test last week.
BACTom@yahoo,com

Thank you

[email protected]

thanks for adding me to list

Test answers
 

Hey if anyone could get me the answers to that test I would appreciate it. My email is [email protected]

Can you please add me to the list [email protected]

Hey Guys,

I'm gonna send out the test and answers to everyone who I haven't gotten to yet tomorrow morning while i'm in class.

If you haven't sent me an e-mail but still want the test/answers feel free to e-mail me.

I've gotten everyone so far. If you still want it, let me know, and I'll get it to you.

You missed me! I emailed you last night. [email protected]. Thanks!

Can i also get on the list
my email is [email protected]
Thanks

Thanks for the answers just received them

Could you please send a copy to my email [email protected]. Thanks

Please send questions and answers to [email protected]

Very much Appreciated!

answers
 

Please include me also, questions and answers would be great. Thanks Dave [email protected]

Test Results
 

If you are still sending out this information - I am definately interested. [email protected].

Thanks

I would like to be included as well, questions and answers. [email protected]

Could you please send me the questions and answers?

[email protected]

Much appreciated.

Ref18

Please add me to the list as well.

[email protected]

Hey, I just got to everyone who replied to me before this.

Test Answers
 

Please add me to the list: [email protected]

can you shoot both Q and A this way

[email protected]

thanks,
j~

I don't even referee basketball, but got a copy of the test from a friend. I told him what was going on and he laughed at how easy it was. I took it and scored an 88. I can't recall the last high school basketball game I watched and I scored and 88...this was not a test!

Now, I can't understand how guys who actually have worked, studied and love to referee need the answers to a basic test. It was simple and this is coming from someone who only played the game, not officiated it!

Some of the comments were simply poetic, "This'll help get me started..." "Thanks for helping me, here's the email of my friend." "Are you sure your answers are ALL correct?"

Getting the answers is cheating. Do you allow the players and coaches to cheat? Nice example you are setting for future refs!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by WindyCityBlue
[B]I don't even referee basketball, but got a copy of the test from a friend. I told him what was going on and he laughed at how easy it was. I took it and scored an 88. I can't recall the last high school basketball game I watched and I scored and 88...this was not a test!

Give me your email and I'll send you 100 true false and we'll see how you do. I've got an officiating course with 1,000 questions assuming I can print them out are you up for the challenge.

I don't think you get it.
I'm not trying to referee basketball.
I'm trying to understand how any official can condone cheating.

The fact that you are trying to test my knowledge with an exam, just proves my opinion. Tests do matter...even basic ones that are required by many states. Cheaters hurt their partners, the players and the game. High school athletics is upposed to be about sportsmanship...except for the part about cheating that is.

Shut up dumbass!!
 

Windy,

Will you shut the f@@k up!!!

No one cares what you think. Not everyone used the test or even takes the Part 1 Exam at all. There are many states that make their own test. If you are too stupid to figure that out, I do not know what to tell you.

Go work baseball and tell everyone at that forum what they do not know. You seem to think you know more than anyone else, so why not go tell them over there. All I know that you have been trying to tell basketball officials what we can or cannot do with the rules and you do not even officiate the sport. So maybe they can be a dumb as you are about the rules. Now you want to take a moral position about rules knowledge. How about pick up a freakin rulebook yourself when someone outside of baseball tells you what you do not understand. That would be a start.

Peace

The vast majority of officials take this test open book, since they can look up the answers, is that cheating?

Many areas don't even take the test in a group, you get your test, take it home, fill in the answers, and either send it in or go to a class and hand it in. Some areas you may not even know the answers after you hand it in.

For the majority of HS officials this is not a test as much as a study guide that covers rule changes, clarifications, and POE.

Windy needs to get a life!
 

I appreciate the help from my colleagues in this avocation!
Lighten up Windy.

BEAR DOWN!

If you get the chance, I'd like them, too.

Thanks, [email protected]

I would like the questions and answers sent to me as well.
Thanks in advance.

No Windy (G. S.) I don't think you get it. You're full of crap if you think anyone believes you got an 88 on the test.

You'd have to know all of the technical rules such as when does a throw in begin and end, jump ball administration officials duties etc. etc. etc. and you don't. I know who you are and I respect you as an umpire but you should stay on the baseball forum. Incidently it's impossible to cheat on an open book test. That's why it's called on an open book test. You have nothing to contribute here!

test
 

Could I get the test and answers for our study group?
Thanks in advance.

My next mail-out of the test will be tomorrow morning.

If anyone wants it then, please drop me a line.

Everyone who I haven't sent it to yet, but has e-mailed me will also get it tomorrow.

[email protected]

Thanks

Add to the list please.

[email protected]

Test Q @A
 

Please me the Q & A if not to late .. Thanks


[email protected]

Please Include. [email protected]

It's funny...a test is a test. Whether it is open book or not, it still tests your ability to answer the questions successfully. You still have to submit the answers, right?

So, if you have the answers prior, and you use them to finish the test, it is cheating! What part of that is unclear? You may know the answer without looking it up, but why do you need the answers prior to submitting this "meaningless" test? I can't beleive that all of those involved have already taken the test and are merely checking theanswers with what they submitted.

Gordon, I got an 88. It doesn't matter what you believe. I've taken enough tests over the years to realize that the NFHS test is truly about reading, not just knowledge.

Rut, you keep proving what all of already know about you.
Why would someone in a state that uses a different test just want the answers (not the questions!) to a test that they don't use? The best officials retain their composure and don't fly off the handle when comments are directed at others. Like I said, the best officials...

High School basketball must be very different... on the baseball board we discuss questions, not request the entire enswer sheet. This is not a victimless crime...it penalizes your partners and the athletes. If you are so confident in your abilities and the test doean't mean anything, why do you need to have the answers? You should already know them!

The only comment I have, and it does bother me, is that we have 5 pages of mostly new officials to this forum requesting test answers. We also at the same time have an excellent test on the backcourt rule that BktBallRef submits every year and is posted in another thread. Approximately 95% of the persons requesting the test answers in this thread are also completely ignoring an actual test that may also be very beneficial to them.

Just wondering- why?

I am an IAABO official and have taken a totally different test than the NFHS test. I requested the questions and answers to test myself (I scored a 90) before the upcoming season. I find it difficult to come up with enough scenarios to test myself.

I have responded to BBR's test on the backcourt rule (without the book) and think I answered all but one correctly.

I am an IAABO official and have taken a totally different test than the NFHS test. I requested the questions and answers to test myself (I scored a 90) before the upcoming season. I find it difficult to come up with enough scenarios to test myself.

I have responded to BBR's test on the backcourt rule (without the book) and think I answered all but one correctly. [/B][/QUOTE]That's great, Dave. I get the IAABO test sent to me every year, and I do it as a refresher too. I also e-mail it to the guys in my association and ask them to write it as a refresher also.They send the answers back to me, and I mark them for them. Takes a little of my time, but it's worth it imo.Surashell can't hurt, anyway.

BBR's test is a good one.

JR as a new official I understand your concern about new officials getting the answers. I requested the test before I understood that it was actually the very test I would be taking. My intent was to use it as a study aid and another sample test. I thought we would be taking our own test (a different one). Once I got it emailed to me, I learned that I was going to be taking that particular test. I never opened the attachment and didnt use it. I agree that even though the test is open book, as a new official if I cant pass the test under the appropriate time constraints and circumstances as everyone else then I shouldnt get to be an official. And when I took the test I did not use any of the info on discussion threads on the questions from this forum. I want to learn it myself and do it myself. Now that I have taken the test (I finished it yesterday and we turn it in tonite) I have started talking about the questions here. Maybe I am being to anal and scrupulous, and I am not saying that what I did is what everyone should do. I just wanted to make sure I could do it on my own.

Clark

By the way, I just found the Backcourt test and will be taking it this afternoon over lunch for my own edification.

Clark

[deleted, oops!]

May I please get the answers to start my refresher work too please? Thank you!

[email protected]

Jurassic,
I can't believe that we can actually agree on something. I take issue with the fact that these officials are requesting the ANSWERS and another official is enabling them in their bid to cheat the system. While some states may not use the NFHS Part 1 test, the majority do. How can you study for the Part 1 test when all you have requested is the answers?

Many organizations retain past tests (Part 1 and 2) and these are terrific study aids. While they may contain some errors because of rule updates, they will teach what is expected and show what they are looking for each year.

No matter how you slice it, an official is required to know the rules and be able to apply them fairly. That last word is key. It is not fair of you to cheat and score well, while others actually test their knowledge and receive an accurate assessment of their talents. Don't B.S. me about being good on the field and court, but do poorly on tests. Officiating is about reacting to pressure and cheaters show their character. I may hide behind a nom de net, but at least I don't publish my email in a bid to beg for answers. I hope some assignors and state directors check this site and recognize some of these email addresses.

I guess it would be too much top ask the thread starter to respond and support his rationale. Coward...

How can you cheat on an open book test? You still have not answered that little question, perhaps someone can e-mail the answer to you.

While you are on this bogus crusade, you repeatedly over look the obvious, which is: For the vast majority of officials this is open book, i.e. that means you can look up the answers. That makes this a study guide more than a test.

Knowing the rules does not mean you can apply them, getting 100% on the test, closed book, does not automatically make you a good official.

If that is not the pot calling the kettle BLACK!!!
 

Windy,

You insult people. Call people names. Throw in their face their lack of ability because you do not like the answers. Now you want to talk about character and what assignors should think of people that are taking what is an open book test? What is your name? Why are you such the coward in letting us all know who you are, so we can find out what your character is and let your assignors know how your behavior is being perceived? You have the nerve to question the character and the integrity of people on this issue, but you have done nothing but violate all the tenets of officiating with your constant name calling and insults to people who simply have a difference of opinion than you do. If the person that started this post is a coward, when anyone looks up a coward in the dictionary, your name is there in big yellow letters.

You have a lot of freakin nerve.

Peace

Take a deep breath and put down the knife...


Again, how you handle pressure is what separates good officials from great ones. You really should try medication.


Cheating is cheating. Supporting those who cheat, enabling them to cheat and covering for them is tantamount to the act itself. It's just very sad. Why do they need the answers if they are so talented? Is it too difficult to discuss an individual question here? Are they puzzled by all of the questions...if so, I think I know why they just want the answers.

Question 101: You witness a coach suiting up a player that isn't on the roster and is not eleigible for this level of play:

a) Ignore it, cheating is okay.
b) Tell your partner, you both could use a laugh.
c) Call your bookie. Maybe you can get a bet down on the ringer.
d) Cheating is wrong. It is unethical and has no place in a high school athletic event.

Re: If that is not the pot calling the kettle BLACK!!!
 

Hey Rut. His intials are G. S. I'm sure you know him. Also He does this just to get a rise out of people. Best just to ignore him on the basketball forum.

This is not about getting a rise out of anyone.
This is about making officials better.
You may not agree with some/much/most of what I've said here or on the baseball board, but you can't argue that providing the answers to a test is not cheating. It is called a test for a reason after all. A lot of people have failed open book tests before. More important, those that pass but have crappy scores, provide assignors and directors with one more tool in evaluating.

Can you honestly support giving someone in Illinois the answers to a test that determines promotion and playoff status? Other states do the same thing and we now have a whole lot of officials that have 99's and 100's that don't belong on a Varsity floor. Let's promote them, though...yeah, that's fair.

BTW, if Rut hasn't figured out the identity puzzle, that speaks volumes about his talent.

It's cheating by copying the answer from an answer sheet without opening the book. I think a much more beneficial thing to do would be to post all the rule references for each question and leave the answer as an exercise for the student.

The point of an open book test is to get the person to OPEN THE BOOK. Many, if the answers are provided, will simply enter the answers and learn nothing. How many times do you make a correct call and catch hell for it because half of your partners you ever have believe one of the many myths that are so common? Too often for me.

BTW, if Rut hasn't figured out the identity puzzle, that speaks volumes about his talent. [/B][/QUOTE]

BTW, I've worked with Rut he's a good official and he doesn't need me to defend him. As I said I respect your abilities as a baseball umpire but you're a little thin skinned yourself and you show it when you attack people. A little lacking in self confidence by posting annonymously?

RookieDude,

Now you're getting it...we're here to learn from others.
I've learned an awful lot from officials that were much better and far worse than I.

In answer to your question:
I actually had this play happen to me at the high school and college levels. In the high school game, I ejected the kid for unsportsmalike conduct on a Friday night. That team showed up for a round robin tournament the next day. The kid comes out dressed to play first, just as we enter the field. His coach hands my partner the line up card and asks if everything is correct. (We talked in our "locker room" about this joker and how he earned an early exit.) He informed the coach that he had listed a player that was ineligible and urged him to handle the issue or we would. The coach acknowledged that the kid got bounced but tried to explain that he was only ineligible for the next "conference game". (Now you know why I advocate actually knowing the rules and taking the test by yourself. If he insisted on playing him, I would have informed him that I was going to contact his AD, the Principal and the IHSA through a Special Report. This is a fairly serious matter in Illinois and he would have faced some pointed questions from the powers that be. That probably would have handled it before having to eject the coach or escalating it.

That said, your question inferred that I witnessed the kid being ejected the game prior. Was I a fan or an on-court official? Maybe it doesn't matter in this sport, but enforcing it could make it a "no he wasn't/yes he was affair". I hate those and try not to look for more trouble than comes my way out there. Again, I'm not a high school basketball official, but stayed in a Holiday Inn express last night.

And you can tell from,"Please send me the answers at..." that these posters are not taking the test, not looking up the rule, and just filling in the little circles.;)

gordon,
stick around the baseball site for a while.
I think you'll learn a whole lot.
I pick my battles very carefully and offer advice and criticism as merited. You'll find very few that can actually argue with my advice in baseball. They may not like the messenger, but the message has made more than a few of them much more capable.

lastly, you may want to rewind the tape and see who threw the daggers first. I argue that cheating is unacceptable in officiating...period, end of story. I did not call names (okay cheater is a name, but nothing else is appropriate) but Rut jumped in and went postal. Liek I've said all along, the best officials learn how to handle pressure and respond to criticism. Communication is our most important tool. Being aware of better ways to think or act, but refusing to implement them is ignorant, not courageous. I challenge officials to think outside of the box (remember, I proposed doing whatever was necessary to get the call right back in April - look at the World Series!). I urge them to put the game first and keep getting better. Read the Sprinkles exchange and then determine who is kidding who.

blindzebra,

In Illinois, this test qualifies you for promotion and makes you eligible for post season assignments. All things being equal - the kid that gets the higher score because he cheats may get the assignment over the guy who deserves it.


Does anyone have tonight's winning Illinois lottery numbers?
I want to be a multi millionaire, but don't want to earn it.

Okay, said cheater gets the big game, very unlikely despite what the by-laws say, and cheater F's up a rule. Cheater's big game chances are zip from that point on.

Someone who's taking a short cut, would most likely kick a rule during the season, thus never making the big game.

Someone prone to short cuts, would also likely have it show in their mechanics, again making that big game unlikely.

Someone taking short cuts would not go to camps, would disappear in rules meetings, and the word would get out about them during the season, all making that playoff game unlikely.

It comes to this, if the state says the criteria is based on several factors the test is so far down on that list it's laughable. What happens with a test in November has much less impact than what happens on the court in December and January.

Sigh.

Windy, trust me, there is very little that we do actually agree on here. Certainly, there's not very much agreement on a lot of the statements that you have made in the threads that I just read. You're doing this more as a personal crusade against Rut than anything else.

Yes, the potential might now be there for cheating in certain areas. Yes, I don't like the practise of giving out test answers at this time of year when officials all over the country are taking this test. And this is about the 4th. year, I think, that we've argued on this forum about this exact same practise too. No, I do not have any specific knowledge about any official using these test answers to actually cheat. Yes, I have too much respect in general for my fellow basketball officials to suggest that any of them would actually cheat. Ever.

We are, however, held up to a higher standard than anyone else in this sport. And rightfully so. Sending actual exam answers out over the internet while officials might still be taking the exam somewhere leaves us open to criticism from non-official sources imo. And it certainly leaves us open to people that might have their own axe to grind too.

And.......I thought that my wondering why the new officials who want these answers to improve their rules knowledge aren't also taking advantage of an excellent in-house rules test too was a valid concern also.

Clark, I hope to see you on tv some day. You certainly got your head in the right place, and you're starting out with a great attitude. Good luck. And keep coming to this forum. There is an amazing amount of knowledge and experience here from posters all over the country. And they're willing to share it too.

Well, if it's the Part 1 test we're talking about here, we get the test itself in our registration packets, without the answers. We get the answers a few weeks later. But it's very difficult to study if you don't know whether you're right or wrong. I wanted the answers so I could correct the test which I had ALREADY TAKEN before I got the answers. This actually helps me do better on the part 2 test, which we take in a week or two, with no help, and no open book available.

So, Windy, there is at least one legitimate reason to request the answers.

That's the whole point. You can't tell. But, if you provide direct rule references, you konw that they will at least have to open the book to see for themselves.

I wish we could get a page with both the answers and the references. It's so incredibly frustrating to just get an answer and not find a reference to back it up. And some of the references are in the weirdest places...

Thanks JR that is really nice of you to say. If I manage to do anything right this year it will be solely because some senior guys took an interest in me and helped me. Luckily I know that I dont know anything and I'm happy to soak up all the advice I can get.

Clark

Re: Re: If that is not the pot calling the kettle BLACK!!!
 

No. I really am not familiar with many umpires the same way I am with the other sports. Really I do not care. It is one thing to know someone, it is entirely another to have to interact and deal with someone. I do not run into anyone that would really have that much personal influence on what I do that comes from his organization, so it might be an interesting note to find out who he is, but rather irrelevant to my everyday officiating life.

Peace

You really do not understand basketball I see in our state. You cannot get on a playoff basketball floor without first working varsity games. If all you have is a test score and not ratings (varsity games only btw) or Top 15 list status and no playoff experience, it does not matter what you score is, you are not going to the playoffs. Basketball is not baseball. They do not regularly give playoff games to X and R officials. And, Kurt Gibson made it clear that the more conferences you work (evidence by your ratings) you the more likely you will get. And the IHSA is heavy on mechanics and working the many philosophies that the IHSA holds. This is especially the case on the Boy's side. If you are not working regularly on the Boy's side, you are not going to get into the playoffs. It ain't happening.

Peace

Okay,

I think it's time to close this thread.

If the origional poster or moderator reads this, please close this.

Otherwise, if you still want the test, send me an e-mail, as I don't feel like reading through this crap.

ref 18,

Can I have the answers to the test?

Please send them to:

Kurt Gibson
Illinois High School Association
Assistant Executive Director - Boys Basketball
2715 McGraw Drive
Bloomington, Illinois 60712

Please include your name and address so I can properly thank you for ruining officiating across the country.

Hey Windy,

He can send them to who ever he wants to right now. Time for taking the test is over in Illinois.

But you knew that I guess. NOT!!!!

Why did you not give Beth's name and address? If someone does not work Boy's basketball, Kurt is not anyone they would be concerned with. And Kurt is not over the official's department. Kurt does the assigning for the post season. He is not over the status of officials and their licensing and testing issues. That is Dave's job. But you are so big time, you should know that already. I have told you that many times. ;)

Peace

[Edited by JRutledge on Nov 16th, 2004 at 11:29 AM]

Windy,

Many moons ago I was a member of Umps (An organization I have a lot of respect for) and as I recall Bill and/or Russ conducted a class in February where we did the test as a group. You are a member of Umps. Are you telling me that your members don't compare answers? You must think that the powers that be at the Fed. are stupid. They know that the answers are passed around. If they wanted to the Part 1 test could be administered as part of A Rules Interp. If it were done this way the weeping and gnashing of teeth would be unbearable.

Not only would there be an unbearable, they might just lose officials. The people that work the lower level games, might just say forget it and work youth ball or rec. leagues and not get licensed at all. I know they would lose football officials if they did that. Football officials can make more money working Pop Warner than wasting their time with HS games where you have to have a license and not get paid the same amount for a day working youth football.

Peace

Windy,

Many moons ago I was a member of Umps (An organization I have a lot of respect for) and as I recall Bill and/or Russ conducted a class in February where we did the test as a group. You are a member of Umps. Are you telling me that your members don't compare answers? You must think that the powers that be at the Fed. are stupid. They know that the answers are passed around. If they wanted to the Part 1 test could be administered as part of A Rules Interp. If it were done this way the weeping and gnashing of teeth would be unbearable. [/B][/QUOTE]

gordon,
Bill/Russ or Mike may have taught the class that used the Part 1 test as the basis for discussion. I have attended many of these and without fail it goes something like this:

Week 1) The first twenty five questions are assigned to the rookies. They are asked to answer them and return the following week for discussion.
Week 2) Bill/Rus or Mike will randomly select members and ask the question. He/she will give their answer and the class will either agree or disagree. All rulings are cited with page number and rule number.
Weeks 3-6) These same rookies knock off the remaining questions in the same manner. The funny thing is that they are actually due the week before the last week of training. So, they will not be provided all of the answers at our sessions, prior to the closing of the test!

Of course the answers are discusssed and passed around. I've been asked for the answers hundreds of times and NEVER give them out. I may answer a question or provide a ruling to demonstarte it, but he/she must still figure it out. Your thought that "cheating is unavoidable, so why not just live with it?" is the antithesis of officiating. The NFHS trusts that the indviduals that are supposedly upholding the rules will behave in a like manner. Didn't your mother ever say, "Just because all of the other kids are jumping off the building, doesn't mean you have to do it." I choose not to perpetuate fraud. The test is simple and a few points can and does make a difference. Ignoring the infraction is just as bad as encouraging it.

Rut,

Is the test closed in every other state? That's right, you have again stumbled at the base line.


Kurt might want to know the name of the guy who posted weeks ago that he would provide the answers to his crews. I used his name because you did. I did not include beth or any other state director, since you seem to be the only one here that likes tedious work.

You have still not given one reason why providing the answers to this test is a good thing. Some of us want to insure that the next generation is prepared and not coddled. Tests are about accountability and pressure...so is officiating.