fighting and leaving bench area?

[jritchie]

dead ball on violation team A ball, A1 hits B1, B6 leaves bench area but does not get involved in altercation, just wanted a front row seat! B1 does nothing at all...
Ruling???? flagrant, indirect"t", free-throws (how many if any), ejections?

[Edited by jritchie on Oct 25th, 2004 at 11:43 AM]

[ChuckElias]

Everything here (except the disclaimer at the bottom )applies only to FED.

Originally posted by jritchie
A1 hits B1,

So we have a fight. . . Flagrant T (since it's during a dead ball) on A1. Bye-bye.

B6 leaves bench area

So we have bench personel leaving the bench area during a fight. . . Flagrant T on B6. Bye-bye.

but does not get involved in altercation,

So we have an indirect T on Coach B. If it's his third charged T (direct or indirect), he goes bye-bye too. If not, then he can stay, but he's seatbelted.

B1 does nothing at all...

Good for him. He stays, too.

free-throws (how many if any), ejections?

Bob's better at this than I am, but I'll give it a shot. It looks like you give 2 FT to B for A1's punch and then give 2 FTs to A for B6 leaving the bench. In the "fighting" section in the back of the rulebook, it makes it sound like you treat the T's on "players" separately from any T's on bench personnel. If that's true, then each team would get 2 FTs.

I would hope that the T's would offset, and no FTs shot. Otherwise, A gets the ball back after A1 started it all.

[jritchie]

ncaa has different set of rules for this event...but let's list differences>>>>>>>>>

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by jritchie
ncaa has different set of rules for this event...but let's list differences>>>>>>>>>

NCAA -- B6 is ejected. No fouls because of this action.

FED -- What Chuck said -- fouls offset. Go to the arrow.

[jritchie]

i think in NCAA, you only shoot the 2 ft's for the A1 punch, you don't shoot any free throws for B6 coming on to the floor, but both are ejected and A1 will serve fighting suspension and B6 does not have to... they are two separate acts so they do not offset! I THINK!

[OldCoachNewRef]

Let's suppose A6, A7, and A8 leave the bench area to get a better view and don't participate in the fight. What penalties are there then?

[jritchie]

in nfhs Team B would shoot 2 ft for the flagrant on A1 for the fight... And wouldn't team B also get 2 shots for the indirect T because team A had two more players leave that didn't offset...coach from both teams also get 1 indirect...

As for NCAA, Team B would shoot the two shots for the fight, all players will be ejected that participated or just came on court and observed, no T's for that, Team B throw in????? i could be wrong... that's why i have asked the question though

[Mregor]

In NFHS, you only shoot the difference in the fouls. That is, if you have 2 T's on A and 3 on B, B would shoot 2 for the difference of on T.

Mregor

[Mregor]

Originally posted by OldCoachNewRef
Let's suppose A6, A7, and A8 leave the bench area to get a better view and don't participate in the fight. What penalties are there then?

A1 gets Flagrant T, DQ'd for the fighting.
A6, A7, A8, B6 all get T and DQ for leaving the bench (indirects to their respective coaches, A is gone and maybe B's coach gone depending on if he has any already, if not, he's seatbleted).

We now have 4 T's on A and 1 T on B. B would shoot 6 FT's for the difference.

Mregor

[gostars]

A1 gets Flagrant T, DQ'd for the fighting.
A6, A7, A8, B6 all get T and DQ for leaving the bench (indirects to their respective coaches, A is gone and maybe B's coach gone depending on if he has any already, if not, he's seatbleted).

We now have 4 T's on A and 1 T on B. B would shoot 6 FT's for the difference.

Mregor

According to NFHS rule 10-4-4 all the players that leave their bench when a fight breaks out or may break out are DQ'd. However, only one indirect T is charged to the head coach and only two free throws are awarded forthe players leaving the bench. No matter how many left the bench.

[jritchie]

if the whole team leaves the bench to observe, and none of them get involved, you still only have 1 indirect, but they are all ejected, and you shouldn't have to worry about subs the rest of the night...

[Nevadaref]

Wow! I'm really surprised by the number of people in this thread who provided incorrect answers.
The precise way to handle these penalties is detailed on pages 67 and 68 of the Rules Book. It appears that ALL of us should go read that section as a refresher, and then hope that we never have a need for it.
Looking at what many people wrote, it appears that some people are assuming that they know this procedure, when they really don't.
I say this because:
Many who responded wanted to shoot lots of FTs for the BENCH PERSONNEL (The kids on the bench in uniform are not PLAYERS, but rather are properly called TEAM MEMBERS. Likewise, the adults (coaches), student managers, and injured student athletes not suited up to play are bench personnel. This may seem picky, but those are the correct definitions, see 4-34. With that in mind, I was greatly disappointed to see the NFHS incorrectly use the term "PLAYER(S)" and "bench player" in the final comment on the rule revisions on page 72 of the Rules Book, when refering to these people.) leaving the bench who didn't participate, when you can only shoot a MAXIMUM of 2 FTs, if the number of players is unequal. You shoot 2 FTs for each when those team members participate in the fight and the numbers are unequal. Whatever doesn't cancel out is awarded.
Also, some stated that the coach is charged an indirect for each player who left the bench, but didn't fight. One poster even wanted to assess the head coach an indirect T for the player on the court who was fighting! As a later poster correctly wrote, the coach only receives ONE indirect no matter how many leave the bench, if they don't fight. The coach is, however, charged an indirect T for each team member who leaves the bench and participates. Don't confuse the two!

Now there is some question as to whether the final Ts will offset. The way I read the rule (and I would love to know, if someone can demonstrate decisively that this is incorrect) is:
There are THREE Categories that the team personnel who can be penalized will fall under:
1. Player on the court who participates in the fight.
2. Team member leaving the bench, who does NOT participate.
3. Team member leaving the bench and DOES participate.

Note that Category 1 does not carry any indirect T for the head coach.

You only cancel the FTs for players in the same category.
Example:
If Team A is due 2 FTs from Category 1, but Team B is due 2 FTs for Category 2, and Team A is due 6 FTs for Category 3, the officials should administer a total of 10 free throws. 8 to Team A and 2 for Team B. The way the current Penalty rule is written these do NOT offset. (Rule 10, Summary of Penalties for All Fouls #8 a + b)

Lastly, I would like to point out something that I only noticed last night. The TEAM BENCH is different from the TEAM BENCH AREA. The definitions are in 1-13. You will notice that the TEAM BENCH is entirely off the court, but that the TEAM BENCH AREA (which can be used for time-outs) extends onto the court to the nearer free-throw lane line.

The new rule change as well as the old fight rule is for players leaving the TEAM BENCH. It is not necessary that they leave the TEAM BENCH AREA in order to be charged with the flagrant technical foul. Bottom line: If they step inbounds, they have infringed the rules.

Sorry for ranting and being pedantic, but if this situation does arise, please, let's get it right!


[Edited by Nevadaref on Oct 27th, 2004 at 05:45 AM]

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Nevadaref
Wow! I'm really surprised by the number of people in this thread who provided incorrect answers.

Now there is some question as to whether the final Ts will offset. The way I read the rule (and I would love to know, if someone can demonstrate decisively that this is incorrect) is:
There are THREE Categories that the team personnel who can be penalized will fall under:
1. Player on the court who participates in the fight.
2. Team member leaving the bench, who does NOT participate.
3. Team member leaving the bench and DOES participate.

Note that Category 1 does not carry any indirect T for the head coach.

You only cancel the FTs for players in the same category.
Example:
If Team A is due 2 FTs from Category 1, but Team B is due 2 FTs for Category 2, and Team A is due 6 FTs for Category 3, the officials should administer a total of 10 free throws. 8 to Team A and 2 for Team B. The way the current Penalty rule is written these do NOT offset. (Rule 10, Summary of Penalties for All Fouls #8 a + b)

(portions of the above snipped)

1) In your categories, you forgot the coach -- it matters not whether s/he participates or not (by rule -- as a practical matter, if the coach is serving as peace-keeper, don't penalize).

2) Fouls across categories *do* offset. So, in your example A would shoot 6 throws (8 - 2) and get the ball. See 6.4.3 for one example

[OldCoachNewRef]

We just happened to study these rules in class 2 weeks ago and I was confused a little. Navadaref and Mr. Jenkins, thank you for clearing things up. This is my second year, and the big written test for my patch is only a month away. If I get an 86 or above and do the same on my floor test in February, I'll be a "real" (certified) official. I'm sure there will be several questions about fighting and you guys cleared up all of my questions.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
2) Fouls across categories *do* offset. So, in your example A would shoot 6 throws (8 - 2) and get the ball. See 6.4.3 for one example

So. . . completely different example. . .

A1, A2 and B1 all engage in a fight on the court. B6 comes off B's bench but doesn't participate.

In the "player" category, Team A gets one more technical than Team B. In the "bench personnel" category, Team B has one more technical than Team A.

Just for clarity, no FTs are shot in this scenario? Or do the fouls only offset across categories for "bench personnel who fight" and "bench personnel who don't fight"?

The case you cite only offsets the fouls between the bench personnel.