The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 16, 2004, 01:14pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: In a little pink house
Posts: 5,289
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Nu1
Wow, Back In The Saddle! I did say it was just a thought

It seems your lengthy answer ultimately ended with, "depends." Which I'm seeing happens somewhat regularly. (I mean in the general sense, with all of our discussions/situations, not with Back In The Saddle specifically.)

So, now I have more to think about and I'm giving Saddle an A+ for an answer worthy of a college paper
It's "worthy" of more than that, Bitsy, if you get my drift!
Yeah, I realized later that I prolly shoulda held the long version in reserve. I think I will probably post some similar stuff in a different forum. It feels good so far.
__________________
"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 16, 2004, 01:21pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: In a little pink house
Posts: 5,289
Re: Re: Slip slidin' away

Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
I instantly recognize this argument for what it is: a logical fallacy. To be precise, a fallacy often called slippery slope.
Since I'm currently teaching "Critical Thinking and Sound Reasoning" (essentially a Logic class), I'm ecstatic to see you recognizing common fallacies. I'm sad, however, to hear you've dropped the course -- again
Yeah, me too. Honestly it would have been a great time to take it, what with the presidential debates and all the other electioneering stuff going on. Such is life. BTW, if you start teaching a "Critical Thinking on the Court" class, I'm transferring!
__________________
"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Sat Oct 16, 2004, 02:38pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,105
Send a message via AIM to ChuckElias
Re: Slip slidin' away

Quote:
Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
This zen official recognizes that he must discover those guiding principles which will allow him to weigh each situation individually and determine the best course of action for each.
"Zen and the Art of Basketball Officiating". A sequel to the classic "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance". Man, I miss my Virago 750.

Quote:
What level of ball is it?
As I implied in my original response, this is a big part of the answer. At lower levels, especially with a very inexperienced partner, I would go with the OOB with no hesitation. In a HS game, with a partner who should know better, I would probably go with the OOB -- with a lot of hesitation.
__________________
Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 20, 2004, 04:43am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2002
Posts: 15,003
Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
I disagree with the conclusion of ignoring the foul.

For many situations in the game, we could certainly have a discussion and find an uncalled violation that preceeded a foul. If no one blows the ball dead, you can't make it dead retroactively...even if it should have been.
This was the argument of Roy Williams a couple of years ago during an NCAA tournament game when he was coaching Kansas. I believe that they were playing Arizona. Kirk Heinrich travelled. He jumped off the floor about two inches when intending to throw a pass, but did not throw the pass. He returned to the floor with the ball. There was a floor level camera which clearly showed this. The covering official, the T, had a poor angle and did not call the violation. The C from across the court saw it. About 3 seconds later Heinrich dribbled to the top of the Key and was fouled. The T whistled the foul. The C immediately when over to him and they conferred. They wiped out the foul and called the travel. Since this happened with about 30 seconds left in the first half, Williams was still mad about it when the TV reporter interviewed him before he went to the lockerroom. He said something very similar to what you wrote above.
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 20, 2004, 06:50am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: The Arctic Circle
Posts: 112
Send a message via Yahoo to JohnBark
Question so....

in conclusion the, the correct call would be to ignore the violation and continue with the foul, correct?

even though is was a jr. high girls game. i just want to make the correct call. thanks!
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 20, 2004, 07:36am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,105
Send a message via AIM to ChuckElias
It depends on level of play and also depends on the amount of time between the violation and the foul. If there's an appreciable amount of time, then you have to say that it's just too late to call the violation. But if it's a matter of a second or maybe even 2, I still would call the violation and ignore the contact.
__________________
Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 20, 2004, 10:34am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: In a little pink house
Posts: 5,289
If it's a lower level of play, if it's a quick and easy fix, and if it's going to be easy to sell, I'm gonna go with the fix (i.e., get it right) rather than continue with the foul.
__________________
"It is not enough to do your best; you must know what to do, and then do your best." - W. Edwards Deming
Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Wed Oct 20, 2004, 12:22pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,260
Quote:
Originally posted by Nevadaref
Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
I disagree with the conclusion of ignoring the foul.

For many situations in the game, we could certainly have a discussion and find an uncalled violation that preceeded a foul. If no one blows the ball dead, you can't make it dead retroactively...even if it should have been.
This was the argument of Roy Williams a couple of years ago during an NCAA tournament game when he was coaching Kansas. I believe that they were playing Arizona. Kirk Heinrich travelled. He jumped off the floor about two inches when intending to throw a pass, but did not throw the pass. He returned to the floor with the ball. There was a floor level camera which clearly showed this. The covering official, the T, had a poor angle and did not call the violation. The C from across the court saw it. About 3 seconds later Heinrich dribbled to the top of the Key and was fouled. The T whistled the foul. The C immediately when over to him and they conferred. They wiped out the foul and called the travel. Since this happened with about 30 seconds left in the first half, Williams was still mad about it when the TV reporter interviewed him before he went to the lockerroom. He said something very similar to what you wrote above.
I think that is a different beast. One official SAW the violation and was waiting to see if is partner was going to call it. Delayed whistle is all that is.

Going back and asking the official if such and such happened and then deciding it's a violation is quite different.
__________________
Owner/Developer of RefTown.com
Commissioner, Portland Basketball Officials Association
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:13am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1