3 person help please

condracek · #1 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 14, 2004, 11:00am

This year we are suppose to be learning 3 person. Our association has not adopted three person yet, but they want us ready.

I have been officiating for 10 years now, but only two person. I tried 3 person at a camp four years ago and was totally lost. I got so comfortable in two person and didin't understand very well. (I know that practice will help, but I need more.) Some of my co-officals have said that they like 3 better than 2 and it is hard to swith between the two.

Does anyone have any advice for me?

Thanks

jritchie · #2 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 14, 2004, 11:13am

it is a lot different to go back and forth between the two and three person crews, but once you learn all the things about it, it really is a lot better and you will not want to do nothing else but 3 person... Just try to watch a lot of it tv or whatever and go to as many camps as you can to learn as much as you can, ask a lot of questions..

ChrisSportsFan · #3 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 14, 2004, 11:13am

know your primary and stay in it, trust your partner just like in 2-man. seems like it would be alot easier with the extra set of eyes but we only have 3-man on select games (usually the bigger and faster teams) so you still gotta work hard to get angles. switches will come natural with practice. here in Missouri, we're going tableside so if you call the foul, the only switch is with tableside. the good news is that if it's new to your area, nobody besides the refs really know how it should go so just have fun with it.

ChuckElias · #4 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 14, 2004, 01:30pm

Quote:

Originally posted by condracek
Does anyone have any advice for me?

First of all, welcome to the forum. Second, can you be a little more specific about what you want help with? We could just point you to the officials' manual, but I'm sure that's not really what you're asking. What's troubling you, specifically? Rotations? Switches on fouls? Areas of responsibility? Positioning? Transition coverage?

If there's something that's especially problematic, let us know, and you'll get more specific advice.

JRutledge · #5 (**permalink**) Thu Oct 14, 2004, 01:59pm

The best thing I can tell you is to attend a camp. It is really hard to learn the situation on the internet. I have been working 3 Man for almost 10 years. I learn new things every single year about the system or it changes where I have to continue to get something new I did not know from the past. The more you understand 2 Person, the more I believe you will understand 3 person. Just keep in mind, the Center position was put in place to help coverage.

Like Chuck said, if you have some specific questions we will be glad to answer it. I would also suggest that you watch a lot of college basketball (Men's preferred) to get a basic understanding on top of what you might hear. You have to first understand the basics.

Peace

condracek · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 16, 2004, 11:16am

What's troubling you, specifically? Rotations? Switches on fouls? Areas of responsibility? Positioning? Transition coverage?

I had the most trouble with the area of responsibility. Because I am a female and young, some of the other male officials in my association feel they can over rule me. So I am less likely to make a scene and not call in a "grey" area. The other thing I am getting caught at is in two person it is clear of of the "grey" area, but in 3, the lead is suppose to be calling the fast break shooter to the basket and be the only one to make the call, or so I am told. So this is kind of the most of my concern.

JRutledge · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 16, 2004, 11:31am

Quote:

Originally posted by condracek
I had the most trouble with the area of responsibility. Because I am a female and young, some of the other male officials in my association feel they can over rule me.

That might be an issue you need to address with your association. Not sure any of us can really help you or know if that is the case. It might be that the officials you work with just do not understand what 3 Person is about

Quote:

Originally posted by condracek
The other thing I am getting caught at is in two person it is clear of of the "grey" area, but in 3, the lead is suppose to be calling the fast break shooter to the basket and be the only one to make the call, or so I am told. So this is kind of the most of my concern.

That is not ever true. What if the shooter comes from the Center's side? The Center even in half court situation has the right to watch the ball all the way to the basket. And in transition, there are really not defined areas. You have to work together to call what happens. Sometimes depending on who is where and how many players are in front of you, you might have a situation where all 3 officials could have a possible call in transition. Even the Trail depending on what players are doing what could have a call.

Peace

ChuckElias · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 16, 2004, 12:40pm

Quote:

Originally posted by condracek
I had the most trouble with the area of responsibility. Because I am a female and young,

Ok, my next question is: which set of 3-whistle mechanics are you using? Are you using FED/NCAA men's mechanics? Or are you using pro/NCAA women's mechanics? The areas of responsibility are very different (especially for the Lead official) in these two systems.

If you're working FED/NCAAM mechanics, then -- roughly -- here's the areas of responsibility:

First imagine a line that goes from one basket to the other, dividing the court in half. When we're in a settled frontcourt situation, the Center has everything on his/her half of the court.

Now see where the imaginary line meets the FT line? Imagine another line from that point to the low block on the Lead's side. Now we've got a triangle in the lane. It goes from the midpoint of the FT line to the basket, then to the low block, then back to the midpoint of the FT line. The Lead owns that triangle.

The Trail has everything else on that half of the court.

Hope that helps.

Matt S. · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 16, 2004, 06:06pm

Chuck-I think you meant to have the line from the midpoint of the FT line go to the intersection of the 3-pt line and the baseline...as far as I know, THAT is the lead's primary...

ChuckElias · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Oct 16, 2004, 06:55pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Matt S.
Chuck-I think you meant to have the line from the midpoint of the FT line go to the intersection of the 3-pt line and the baseline...

I don't think that's what I meant. But if somebody quotes the officials' manual to show me I was wrong, then I guess that is what I meant.

Matt S. · #11 (**permalink**) Sun Oct 17, 2004, 12:38am

The only reason I'm second-guessing is because we're about to do a lot more 3-man this year, and I want to have it right...

In the FED official's manual (2003-5), the diagram on p. 51 shows the frontcourt primary coverage...The lead's area includes his/her half of the key, plus the area inside the 3-pt. arc below the FT-line extended

I hope I'm not hallucinating

ChuckElias · #12 (**permalink**) Sun Oct 17, 2004, 06:05am

Matt, you're probably not hallucinating. My 3-whistle experience is from NCAA games. I don't work any 3-whistle in HS, so I'm sure you're right. Thumbs up.

Nu1 · #13 (**permalink**) Sun Oct 17, 2004, 08:51pm

For FED and NCAA-Mens...

Is the Lead always supposed to be ball side? Or is it the other way around?

When the ball does switch sides, is there some kind of system or thought process you use for knowing when to switch? Do you wait a few seconds to see if the ball's coming back, or do you just run back and forth and follow the ball?

And finally (I'm getting my money's worth), when the Lead does switch sides, is it correct to say that the Trail and Center are switching also? Trail becoming Center and Center becoming Trail?

BktBallRef · #14 (**permalink**) Sun Oct 17, 2004, 09:07pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Nu1
For FED

Is the Lead always supposed to be ball side? Or is it the other way around?

Not necessarily. Usually you'll be ball side if the ball has settle below the FT line. However, if there are 8 guys on the other side of the floor and you know the ball is going to that side, don't rotate and leave the C to officiate 8 players.

Quote:

When the ball does switch sides, is there some kind of system or thought process you use for knowing when to switch? Do you wait a few seconds to see if the ball's coming back, or do you just run back and forth and follow the ball?

NO! You don't run. You walk briskly, keeping your eye on the player you should be officiating, not the ball.

Most offiicals are somewhere, halfway between the sideline and the FT lane, 4' off the end line if possible. When the ball swins to the top of the key, I close down toward the lane. If the ball continues to swing opposite and settles below the FT line, I only have to cross the width of the lane to flex over. Then I can manuever as needed once I'm on that side.

Quote:

And finally (I'm getting my money's worth), when the Lead does switch sides, is it correct to say that the Trail and Center are switching also? Trail becoming Center and Center becoming Trail?

Yes. The old Trail, moving to C, should be the last one to rotate. It's okay to have two Trails for a few seconds bu you don't ever want to slots.

ChuckElias · #15 (**permalink**) Sun Oct 17, 2004, 09:24pm

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
You don't run. You walk briskly, keeping your eye on the player you should be officiating, not the ball.

I'm going to disagree very slightly. I would say that you rotate at whatever speed you need to in order to get to your new position before the entry pass is made to the post. If the entry pass is imminent, then you run if necessary. What you don't want to happen is to be halfway across the lane as the big guy spins right into the defender's chest and you're straight-lined behind the defender. If the ball has settled high enough that you have time to walk briskly then that's what you do. But if you need to get there quicker, then that's what you do. JMO.

Quote:

Originally posted by Nu1
And finally (I'm getting my money's worth), when the Lead does switch sides, is it correct to say that the Trail and Center are switching also? Trail becoming Center and Center becoming Trail?

This is a technical point, so I apologize in advance, but no, that's not correct to say. Changing positions during live ball play based on the position of the ball is called rotation. Switching -- just like in 2-whistle -- is changing positions during a dead ball b/c a foul was called.

However, if you substitute the word "rotating" where you wrote "switching", then you would be correct.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tony
The old Trail, moving to C, should be the last one to rotate. It's okay to have two Trails for a few seconds bu you don't ever want to slots.

Tony, what's the rationale for this statement? I've always been taught exactly the opposite. We want the C to stay put until the Lead has come all the way to his/her new position and "accepted the play". If the Trail moves to his/her new C spot, that's ok; but we don't want the old Center to abandon whatever action is causing the Lead to rotate. In essence, we're told "it's ok to have two Centers for a few seconds, but you don't ever want two Trails."

Any thoughts?