Rules Question

[Lotto]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

This is not correct, Lotto. Throwing the ball off the oppononent's backboard is always a dribble. Throwing the ball off your own backboard is never a dribble. The FED book makes this explicit, but it's also true in NCAA. The AR that you posted above gives an obvious example. The player dribbled, ended the dribble, threw off the backboard (obviously not a try -- he was passing to himself), and then caught the ball. If that was considered a dribble, the player would've committed a violation.

It's never part of a dribble to throw off your own backboard.

I don't disagree with your last statement (in so far as NCAA rules are concerned), but I don't agree with it either. There's nothing in the rulebook that I see that addresses this. In the A.R. I cited, it is explicitly stated that the player is airborne when he catches and dunks.

If throwing the ball off on one's own backboard is not like bouncing it on the floor, then there's nothing that I can find in the NCAA rulebook, other than the A.R. just cited that deals with a very narrowly conceived situation, that gives any sense of how to deal with this. So what is the status of a player throwing the ball off of his/her own backboard? Is it just like throwing the ball in the air? Is there a difference in NCAA/NFHS?

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Lotto
In the A.R. I cited, it is explicitly stated that the player is airborne when he catches and dunks.

Being airborne or not is irrelevant. If throwing against your own backboard was a dribble, then it would still be a double dribble even if you caught the second "dribble" while airborne.

So what is the status of a player throwing the ball off of his/her own backboard?

It's as if you took a shot. Or maybe not, b/c there's still team control. It's as if you intentionally threw the ball off your opponent. You can catch it and dribble, shoot, pivot, whatever.

[Lotto]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Being airborne or not is irrelevant. If throwing against your own backboard was a dribble, then it would still be a double dribble even if you caught the second "dribble" while airborne.

The A.R. explicitly states that the player is airborne when he/she catches and then dunks. So it's not clear to me that the ruling applies if the player throws the ball off of his/her backboard and catches it on the ground.

For example, another A.R. that I cited above says that throwing the ball against your opponent's backboard is like throwing it off the floor and constitutes the start of a dribble. Since the A.R. explicitly talks about the opponent's backboard, I can't use it to draw a conclusion about throwing the ball of of one's own backboard.

It's as if you took a shot. Or maybe not, b/c there's still team control. It's as if you intentionally threw the ball off your opponent. You can catch it and dribble, shoot, pivot, whatever.

Are you telling me that I can dribble, end the dribble, throw the ball off of my backboard, and dribble again? Even if it is absolutely clear that I am not throwing the ball up in a try for goal? I find that difficult to believe.

Do you have a rule reference to back any of this up?

(Chuck--My tone may come across as belligerent, but is not meant that way. I'm sincerely interested in why you interpret the rules the way you do.)

[SavaahnTy]

Lotto,

I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on the interpret on this one. If you look at the Rule pertaining to bouncing the ball off of the OPPONENTS backboard, it gives you:

1) specific reason why the act is illegal
- bouncing ball off Opps bckbrd constitutes dribble

2) specific violation to call
- double dribble


The rule that we have been looking at to decide about the players own backboard does not give either of these specifics. It simply gives a situation.

But I think that the defining point here is this:
Upon saying that the situation in AR 43 is legal, it doesnt say that it is legal because the player is airborne, or anything else.

It says that " The play shall be legal since the backboard is equipment located in A1’s half of the playing court, which A1 is entitled to use. "

Thats it. It there and he's entitled to use it.

I think Chuck's use of the similar situation of throwing the ball off of his opponent is perfect.

That said, you better eitherhave your rulebook with you, or be able to site the entire rule by heart if a player figures this rule out.. gets trapped with nothing to do...and throws it to himself off of the backboard....and B Coach is going absolutely APE SH** because you didnt call SOMETHING!!

Savaahn Ty
" Just a student of the game, always looking to improve "

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by SavaahnTy
That said, you better eitherhave your rulebook with you, or be able to site the entire rule by heart if a player figures this rule out.. gets trapped with nothing to do...and throws it to himself off of the backboard....and B Coach is going absolutely APE SH** because you didnt call SOMETHING!!

only coaches who don't study the rules will do this. They don't count anyway.

[Lotto]

If I understand you correctly, SavaahnTy, you believe that throwing the ball against your own backboard is the same as throwing it in the air. Is that right?

If not, then what?

[SavaahnTy]

HAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAAH RAINMAKER!!

Show me a coach who studies the rules, and I will...........

Just show me a coach who studies the rules first!!!


Lotto, I apologize. What I am saying is that when Chuck said that throwing the ball off of YOUR OWN backboard is the same is throwing the ball off of your opponent ( he has touched it, so now you can do whatever you want with it ) that he explained the situation well.

AR 43 says your backboard is equip in your half of the court, and you are entitled to use it.

AND SPECIFICALLY GIVES NO RESTRICTIONS UPON SECURING THE BALL AFTER IT HAS BEEN RETRIEVED FROM HITTING THE BACKBOARD.( which means all other basketball rules would apply..ie he cant walk 6 steps with the ball upon securing it from the bckbrd simply because there are no SPECIFIC restrictions )

Does that explain it a bit better?

Man, I definately see I have to work on my typing/internet communication skills...

Savaahn Ty
" Just a student of the game, always looking to improve "

[rpirtle]

Originally posted by Lotto
If I understand you correctly, SavaahnTy, you believe that throwing the ball against your own backboard is the same as throwing it in the air. Is that right?

If not, then what?

It's better than just throwing it in the air...if you threw it in the air you wouldn't get a new dribble. If you throw it against your own backboard you get to start a new dribble...isn't that great!!

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Lotto
The A.R. explicitly states that the player is airborne when he/she catches and then dunks. So it's not clear to me that the ruling applies if the player throws the ball off of his/her backboard and catches it on the ground.

Is there any difference in the double dribble rule that would make a move legal when performed in the air but make the same move illegal when performed with one or both feet on the ground?

I think the answer to that question is "no".

So. . . if it's legal to throw the ball off your backboard and catch it while airborne, I have to conclude that there's nothing in the dribble rule that would make it illegal to throw the ball off your backboard and catch it one or both feet on the ground.

Are you telling me that I can dribble, end the dribble, throw the ball off of my backboard, and dribble again?

Yes.

Even if it is absolutely clear that I am not throwing the ball up in a try for goal?

Yes.

I find that difficult to believe.

And yet. . .

Do you have a rule reference to back any of this up?

Not on me. FED makes this explicit in a case book play, I'm prety sure. But my book is still in the car from last night. I think the AR that you quoted is pretty good evidence for NCAA rules.

(Chuck--My tone may come across as belligerent, but is not meant that way. I'm sincerely interested in why you interpret the rules the way you do.)

Sweat it not. Dan might've suggested that you snuggle up to your horse; but I could tell you didn't mean anything by it.

[Lotto]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Not on me. FED makes this explicit in a case book play, I'm prety sure. But my book is still in the car from last night. I think the AR that you quoted is pretty good evidence for NCAA rules.

I'd love to see the text of this case. (We use NCAA rules for the HS games that I ref, so I only have the NCAA book.) Could you, or someone else, provide it for me? Thanks!

[jritchie]

ncaa 4-67 art 4 a.r.43

[Lotto]

Originally posted by jritchie
ncaa 4-67 art 4 a.r.43

That's the A.R. I cited above. I'm looking for the NFHS case book play that says that you can legally end a dribble, throw the ball off of your own backboard, and dribble again.

[jritchie]

should be in 9-5-1 but i don't have my case book with me

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Lotto

That's the A.R. I cited above. I'm looking for the NFHS case book play that says that you can legally end a dribble, throw the ball off of your own backboard, and dribble again.

You won't find it. There's no NFHS case book play that specifically states that.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
There's no NFHS case book play that specifically states that.

But isn't there a rule or case that includes note like "Throwing the ball off the backboard is the same as throwing the ball off the floor, except that throwing the ball of one's own backboard does not constitute a dribble"?