Changing your partner's call

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
And what is the result of that conversation? Are you still gonna let your partner overrule you?

If an official stops the clock to change the points of 3 point attempt, I am going with his call. I do not consider that an over-rule, I call that "bailing my *** out." And if the tape does not prove it, my behind is off the hook.

Peace

[SavaahnTy]

$0.02

Always pre-game this situation..however, I must admit I would disagree ( doesnt mean I wouldnt follow it!) with the Fed procedure.

First, if it is even close and I am not in perfect position, I will wait a breif moment before I signal the try as a three and take a glance at the partner who may have been able to see if he was indeed behind the line. If one of my partners does this to me, I am now taking responsibility for the call, and signalling the try or pointing two towards the floor.

If I believe it is a three and get nothing back from my partner on the glance, I'm going up with the three. If I am not sure, I'm not making any definitive signals....and we move on with the game and the bucket counts for 2 ( which all field goals do unless you signal otherwise..although I have a few partners who INSIST on signaling two on every bucket..lol)

Now here is where I differ in the procedure. In the situation I just described above, if there is a question by ANYONE as to the points on that particular shot, my partners and I will discuss it during a normal stop in play...ie ball out of bounds, foul, etc. If, as the original scenario described in the post, I signal 3 and THEN my partner ( who better be 3,000% sure ) signals a two, my partner wins without discussion EVERY SINGLE TIME.

The two fingers pointing towards the floor is a definitive gesture signaling to EVERYONE that, although it was close, the shooter was not behind the 3 point shooting line. If one of your partners " changes your call " on this one, you roll with it, because if there is any disagreement, the call is now on his shoulders. That is ok, because you TRUST YOUR PARTNER that there was a reason he made the definitive signal.. and you get your a** in better position next time.

All of this can be done inside our lil world of officiating. without blowing your whistle and stopping play, and letting everyone else ( people like that Wildcat FanATIC I was reading about in past posts ) know that it is possible that one of us was out of position, or a completely blind idiot.

If you are that certain of the 3-point and your partner does this Dan ( is that who is arguing the point? ), wait until a timeout, come together, place your hand over your mouth, keep a straight face..... and rip his a** a new one. ( wait until halftime when applicable) Then move on with the game as if it never happened.

**IMHO IMHO IMHO IMHO IMHO IMHO

Savaahn Ty

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
Many seem to be missing the point - don't over-rule your partner.

blah blah blah

And it is surely not "He who makes the call lastly, makes it most correctly." That's the garbage of which I originally spoke.

[Edited by DownTownTonyBrown on Oct 12th, 2004 at 04:45 PM]

Hey Tony, you went to the trouble of telling us exactly what the fed wants you to do with respect to 3 point coverage and still you can't find it within you to follow this simple directive issued by the fed?

How come?

[DownTownTonyBrown]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Hey Tony, you went to the trouble of telling us exactly what the fed wants you to do with respect to 3 point coverage and still you can't find it within you to follow this simple directive issued by the fed?

How come?

I don't see any reason to think that my partner's perception of what occurred in my primary area is better than my perception. If I made the effort to be in position and fulfilled my responsibility to the officiating team why should my partner, who was not in the proper position to see the plays for which I am responsible, have the last opportunity to "correct me" - no rebuttal, no questions asked, no discussion, no nothing, except tell the world that I was wrong and he was right.

I don't like it. And I assume someone at Fedlandia dreamed it up because I have not seen it referenced to any rule or mechanics book.

Perhaps I'm just not used to having that caliber of partner. Don't know; but I don't like it.

Sorry you didn't get the watch analogy Jeff, I thought it was a great example of different perceptions and both parties thinking they were 100% correct. So, who do we synchronize our watches with now?

[ace]

I thought this fell under the correctable error and can be changed at the first dead ball? Espcially if the dead ball happens shortly after the three. If we've gone some time i might ask my partner about that three - and if he doesnt say much about it I'll leave it at that. I dont ever overturn a call unless i've been asked for help.

[SavaahnTy]

Oops, sorry Dan....

Tony, look, you have to deal with it man.....

If you and I are officiating together, and in your primary you signal a three ( are in good position and everything ) and I happen to see that the shooters foot is on the line.... and I change signal ( two fingers to the floor is a definitive signal...bottom line ) to a two point shot... and we stop the game to argue it...you can be assured that the evaluator on the game is going to rip your a**, as well as me, as well as the assignor for the conference. And its not going to matter if you were right. Continue to act like this is similar situations, and you will find yourself removed from the conference. PERCEPTION IS REALITY.

Your partner definitively changes your call after you call/signal something...ROLL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Savaahn Ty

( Behave this way, and deal with the situation later, and in private... and the evaluator, then the conference assignor, will know that you are one who wants to get the call right and improve, but are willinig to be a team player. I guarantee that this will put you in position to be on a crew where your partners won't make these types of mistakes. The way you deal with adversity is important...and from the looks of it, you dont deal with it very well..I apologize for saying )



Your partner

[SavaahnTy]

Your partner is then the one who will be questioned for his call.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by DownTownTonyBrown
I don't see any reason to think that my partner's perception of what occurred in my primary area is better than my perception.

You don't?!?! Your partner just stopped the game to tell you that your perception was off. You don't think that's a reason to think that your perception was off?

Your partner is not going to do that unless it's an obvious and definitive ruling. That is the reason to think that you missed it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

You don't?!?! Your partner just stopped the game to tell you that your perception was off. You don't think that's a reason to think that your perception was off?

Your partner is not going to do that unless it's an obvious and definitive ruling. That is the reason to think that you missed it.

Say what?

Your partner didn't tell you one damn thing, which is the problem. Your partner changed your call without bothering to discuss it with you at all. They would only do that once to me. And if I was evaluating, they'd also only do it once. It only takes 10 seconds to talk this one over- that's all.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Oct 12th, 2004 at 11:58 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by SavaahnTy
Oops, sorry Dan....

Tony, look, you have to deal with it man.....

If you and I are officiating together, and in your primary you signal a three ( are in good position and everything ) and I happen to see that the shooters foot is on the line.... and I change signal ( two fingers to the floor is a definitive signal...bottom line ) to a two point shot... and we stop the game to argue it...you can be assured that the evaluator on the game is going to rip your a**, as well as me, as well as the assignor for the conference. And its not going to matter if you were right. Continue to act like this is similar situations, and you will find yourself removed from the conference. PERCEPTION IS REALITY.

Your partner definitively changes your call after you call/signal something...ROLL WITH IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Savaahn Ty

( Behave this way, and deal with the situation later, and in private... and the evaluator, then the conference assignor, will know that you are one who wants to get the call right and improve, but are willinig to be a team player. I guarantee that this will put you in position to be on a crew where your partners won't make these types of mistakes. The way you deal with adversity is important...and from the looks of it, you dont deal with it very well..I apologize for saying )

Ty, I evaluate. If you ever changed a call that belonged to your partner without first discussing it with him, I guarantee you that you would never work another game for me. Plain and simply, if you'd do that you aren't a team player and you can't be trusted.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Plain and simply, if you'd do that you aren't a team player and you can't be trusted.

Wow, JR, I just flat-out disagree with this. We talk about this exact situation in pre-game. Together, we agree that we will trust the other's good sense in this situation. If you know that I missed the call, I don't need you to come pat me on the shoulder. Just tweet, say "TWO!" and I'll thank you for catching it when I was sleeping.

I think -- as long as we've all discussed it -- that is being a team player. I put my trust in you that you will save me from a mistake; but only when you are sure that it's a mistake.

Now, if we talk about it in pre-game and we decide that we'll get together to talk about it, that's a different story. But there's nothing really to talk about. If you're willing to put your credibility "on the line", pardon the pun, for that call then I consider that be ample evidence that I missed the call.

It is about trust; but I'm trusting you to use that power only when you have zero doubt that I made an error. As always, JMHO.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ChuckElias

Wow, JR, I just flat-out disagree with this. We talk about this exact situation in pre-game. Together, we agree that we will trust the other's good sense in this situation. If you know that I missed the call, I don't need you to come pat me on the shoulder. Just tweet, say "TWO!" and I'll thank you for catching it when I was sleeping.

How can you possibly say that you trust my "good sense", Chuck, if you're gonna overrule me without even bothering to talk to me? What happens if I don't think that I actually did miss the call, but I had it right? That's the situation that bothers me. What you are actually saying here is that your judgement is better than mine. I may wanna disagree with that.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
How can you possibly say that you trust my "good sense", Chuck, if you're gonna overrule me without even bothering to talk to me? What happens if I don't think that I actually did miss the call, but I had it right?

Then you need to voice that kind of concern in the locker room, not wait until the situation happens. Then when this play comes up, I will let you burn because you do not want help.

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
That's the situation that bothers me. What you are actually saying here is that your judgement is better than mine. I may wanna disagree with that.

No, I do not think that is what any of are saying. But if you feel that way then it will dictate what I do. I just will not make any of these types of decisions that will offend you. Problem solved. When the assignor asks me about why I did not help, I will state you made it clear that you did not want help on these kinds of plays. No harm, no foul.

Peace

[rainmaker]

I'm checking in here a little late, because I've been out having a life. But to me the biggest issue is what it does to my credibility if my partner just overrules me from across the floor. Even if I'm going to automatically change my call when he steps in and talks to me, I want the stepping in and the chance to change it myself. I've had partners overrule me from a distance, and I can tell you the rest of my game isn't worth the effort it would take to wipe it off the bottom of my shoes -- or at least, that's what everyone in the gym thinks. I might as well just go home.

[SavaahnTy]

Rainmaker, JR

The situation that you are talking about, in my viewpoint, would be a situation where you had an out of bounds call that was not the same as what I had. IN this instance, we need to come together.

( ON a side note, it almost seems as though both of you are under the notion that your area is your area, and you dont need nor want any help.. ever. To a point, I would agree. But as a strong official, I am absolutely NOT going to make the DEFINITIVE SIGNAL of two fingers towards the floor UNLESS I AM 3,000% SURE. I will also respectfully disagree that this makes me someone who is NOT a team player. )

But in the original post, the topic was a three-pointer... Not the changing of a call, not a difference of opinion in judgement.............I saw him on the line, and I want to get the call correct. But I am not going to stop the game for it. Perhaps if I was officiating in JR's conference, I would have to change this.....

However, having been in the situation where a partner changed my out of bounds call ( not really changed, just came up after I did with the ball going the other way..why he was looking at the line, I have no idea ).. we came together because I KNOW lead did not see it and was simply guessing, and we got the call right. However after talking to the evaluator, and discussing the situation with mentors and others, I was told the same thing time and again... if you partner is willing to come and change your call, roll with it because it is now on his shoulders.

Avoid this situation by a good pre-game, and the problem will be solved.