"jumps with the ball and land again"

[ysong]

It may sound too basic, but I can not find any specific rules related to "jump with the ball and land still holding it" as described in the following scenarios:

a) a player catches a pass when standing with two feet on the floor, he jumps with the ball, both feet leave the floor simultaniously, while everybody is expecting him to shoot or pass, he lands with one foot while the other foot dancing in the air to keep his balance, then he passes the ball.

b) a player catches a pass when standing with two feet on the floor, he fakes and then dodges a flying defender by a jump with one foot leaving floor first, and lands with the first foot, then he jump off that foot again for a easy basket.

c)after a player legally pivots, he jumps off the non-pivot foot, and lands with that non-pivot foot, then he passes the ball before the pivot foot lands.

As you can see, in all above cases, the pivot foot, if established, does not land before the ball is released. But are thoes moves legal in all the above cases? Are there any specific rules saying they are illegal in NCAA?(or NHFS, FIBA, NBA?)

Thanks.





[Edited by ysong on Aug 5th, 2004 at 01:46 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ysong
It may sound too basic, but I can not find any specific rules related to "jump with the ball and land still holding it" as described in the following scenarios:

a) a player catches a pass when standing with two feet on the floor, he jumps with the ball, both feet leave the floor simultaniously, while everybody is expecting him to shoot or pass, he lands with one foot while the other foot dancing in the air to keep his balance, then he passes the ball.

b) a player catches a pass when standing with two feet on the floor, he fakes and then dodges a flying defender by a jump with one foot leaving floor first, and lands with the first foot, then he jump off that foot again for a easy basket.

c)after a player legally pivots, he jumps off the non-pivot foot, and lands with that non-pivot foot, then he passes the ball before the pivot foot lands.

As you can see, in all above cases, the pivot foot, if established, does not land before the ball is released. But are thoes moves legal in all the above cases? Are there any specific rules saying they are illegal in NCAA?(or NHFS, FIBA, NBA?)

NFHS rule 4-43-3 says "After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot,(a) the pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal (b)If a player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or a try for goal". NCAA rule 4-65 is basically the same.

a) It's a travel as soon as one of the jumper's feet returned to the floor. It doesn't matter which foot.
b) Travel if both feet left the court on the first jump, as per (a) above.
c) Travel- same as (a) above.

There are no rules prohibiting travelling in the NBA that I am aware of.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 5th, 2004 at 02:21 PM]

[ChuckElias]

When the questions are easy, somebody invariably jumps in and answers it right away. Since nobody seems willing to offer any help, it seems you've brought up a difficult point. While everybody "knows" that you can't go "up and down" with the ball (except in one very specific case, FED 4-43-2-b2, NCAA 4-65-3-b2), there doesn't seem to be a black and white reason for this assumption. If you look at the traveling rule in Rule 4, the articles discuss what a player may do:

Art 1 - After catching the ball with both feet on the floor;
Art 2 - After catching the ball while moving or dribbling;
Art 3 - After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot;
Art 4 - After coming to a stop when neither foot can be a pivot foot;
Art 5 - While simply holding the ball.

(Those are the FED articles, but the NCAA articles are essentially the same, except for the numbering.)

ysong's first situation is about what can happen when the player catches the ball with both feet on the ground, but before either foot becomes the pivot foot. Articles 3 and 4 don't apply at all to the question, b/c article 3 assumes a pivot has been established (so I don't think JR's reply applies here) and article 4 assumes that neither foot can be established as the pivot. Article 5 doesn't help b/c it deals with a player on the floor, or falling to the floor. Article 1 doesn't help b/c it merely says that when one foot is lifted, the other becomes the pivot. But the original question deals with a player who never establishes a pivot. And article 2 talks about how to establish a pivot foot when the player receives the ball with one or both feet off the floor.

So what is the rule basis for calling a travel when a player with the ball, but before establishing a pivot foot, jumps up and then lands?

It's a major cop-out, but the answer is in the casebook. It's in case 4.43.3B.

4.43.3 SITUATION B: A1 receives the ball with both feet off the floor and he/she lands simultaneously on both feet without establishing a pivot foot. A1 then jumps off both feet in an attempt to try for goal, but realizing the shot may be blocked, A1 drops the ball to the floor and dribbles. RULING: A1 has traveled as one foot must be considered to be the pivot and must be on the floor when the ball is released to start a dribble. The fact that no pivot foot had been established does not alter this ruling.

So even though no pivot foot has been established in such cases, one foot "must be considered" to be the pivot anyway. So in cases where no pivot has been established, we're supposed to rule as if there was one.

Maybe they should just re-word Article 4 to say "After coming to a stop when either (a) neither foot can be a pivot or (b) no pivot has been established. . ."

Now what about a player who hops around on his non-pivot foot?

[Edited by ChuckElias on Aug 5th, 2004 at 02:38 PM]

[ysong]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
[/B]

NFHS rule 4-43-3 says "After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot,(a) the pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the floor, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal (b)If a player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or a try for goal". NCAA rule 4-65 is basically the same.

a) It's a travel as soon as one of the jumper's feet returned to the floor. It doesn't matter which foot.
b) Travel if both feet left the court on the first jump, as per (a) above.
c) Travel- same as (a) above.

There are no rules prohibiting travelling in the NBA that I am aware of.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Aug 5th, 2004 at 02:21 PM] [/B][/QUOTE]

Thanks Jurassic Ref for answering all of my questions, lots of them including my previous posts.

From your Quote of "NFHS rule 4-43-3 (b): If a player jumps, neither foot may be returned to the floor before the ball is released on a pass or a try for goal", we can simply rule case (c) is illegal move in NFHS.

If this rule also applies to "before establishing pivote foot", we can rule case (a), (b) illegal too in NFHS.

But, the problem is, I can not find equevalant rules in NCAA. the closest resemblanse is Rule 4-65-5, but it specifically states that it is when "NEITHER foot can be pivote foot", i,e, after the 2nd count of a jump stop:
"Art. 5. After coming to a stop when neither foot can be the pivot foot:
a. One or both feet may be lifted, but may not be returned to the playing court, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal;"

But what about the case when "EITHER" foot can be pivot foot? one can argue that in case (b), the second foot leaving the floor is the pivot foot, and before it lands, the ball is released, therefore it is a legal move. in case (a), one can assume one foot to be the pivot foot so jump and land on the other foot is not a violation either.

more interestingly, in NCAA Rule 4-65-4
"Art. 4. After coming to a stop and establishing the pivot foot:
a. The pivot foot may be lifted, but not returned to the playing court, before the ball is released on a pass or try for goal;
b. The pivot foot shall not be lifted before the ball is released to start a dribble.",

the NCAA 4-65-4(a) is identical with NFHS 4-43-3(a), but the NFHS 4-43-3(b) is totally missing. Why is the crucial difference?

Thanks.

[ysong]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Since nobody seems willing to offer any help, it seems you've brought up a difficult point. It's a major cop-out, but the answer is in the casebook. It's in case 4.43.3B.

So even though no pivot foot has been established in such cases, one foot "must be considered" to be the pivot anyway. So in cases where no pivot has been established, we're supposed to rule as if there was one.

Maybe they should just re-word Article 4 to say "After coming to a stop when either (a) neither foot can be a pivot or (b) no pivot has been established. . ."

Now what about a player who hops around on his non-pivot foot?

[Edited by ChuckElias on Aug 5th, 2004 at 02:38 PM]

Thanks ChuckElias for offering your help on this. I feel flatered if you think this is a difficult one.

The case you mentioned is about "starting dribble after assumed pivot foot leaves the floor", which NCAA rule is "Black and White" at least in this regard.

But how come the NCAA rule seemingly leaves the door open for the "up and down with the ball" move? is it too fundimental to worth mentioning? Any more thoughts on this?

Thanks.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
When the questions are easy, somebody invariably jumps in and answers it right away. Since nobody seems willing to offer any help, it seems you've brought up a difficult point. While everybody "knows" that you can't go "up and down" with the ball (except in one very specific case, FED 4-43-2-b2, NCAA 4-65-3-b2), there doesn't seem to be a black and white reason for this assumption. If you look at the traveling rule in Rule 4, the articles discuss what a player may do:

Art 1 - After catching the ball with both feet on the floor;
Art 2 - After catching the ball while moving or dribbling;
Art 3 - After coming to a stop and establishing a pivot foot;
Art 4 - After coming to a stop when neither foot can be a pivot foot;
Art 5 - While simply holding the ball.

(Those are the FED articles, but the NCAA articles are essentially the same, except for the numbering.)

ysong's first situation is about what can happen when the player catches the ball with both feet on the ground, but before either foot becomes the pivot foot. Articles 3 and 4 don't apply at all to the question, b/c article 3 assumes a pivot has been established (so I don't think JR's reply applies here) and article 4 assumes that neither foot can be established as the pivot. Article 5 doesn't help b/c it deals with a player on the floor, or falling to the floor. Article 1 doesn't help b/c it merely says that when one foot is lifted, the other becomes the pivot. But the original question deals with a player who never establishes a pivot. And article 2 talks about how to establish a pivot foot when the player receives the ball with one or both feet off the floor.

So what is the rule basis for calling a travel when a player with the ball, but before establishing a pivot foot, jumps up and then lands?

It's a major cop-out, but the answer is in the casebook. It's in case 4.43.3B.

So even though no pivot foot has been established in such cases, one foot "must be considered" to be the pivot anyway. So in cases where no pivot has been established, we're supposed to rule as if there was one.

Maybe they should just re-word Article 4 to say "After coming to a stop when either (a) neither foot can be a pivot or (b) no pivot has been established. . ."

Now what about a player who hops around on his non-pivot foot?

How did DeNucci get access to Chuck's username and password?

[ChuckElias]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

How did DeNucci get access to Chuck's username and password?

Perhaps we could coin a new verb: DeNuccing.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Now what about a player who hops around on his non-pivot foot?

Is this the same guy who is hopping to the endline and back hoping to maintain his BC status?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Perhaps we could coin a new verb: DeNuccing.

Sounds like the painful removal of unwanted hair.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Is this the same guy who is hopping to the endline and back hoping to maintain his BC status?

While tapping the ball in the air?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

[/B]

Perhaps we could coin a new verb: DeNuccing. [/B][/QUOTE]

Sounds like the painful removal of unwanted hair. [/B][/QUOTE]Or something that you'd do to your dog so that he'll stop humping your leg.

"Quit that, Woody, or I'll have you denuccied!"

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Or something that you'd do to your dog so that he'll stop humping your leg. [/B]

While tapping the ball in the air?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker

While tapping the ball in the air? [/B]

And hopping around on your non-humping leg?

[ysong]

Originally posted by rainmaker

While tapping the ball in the air? [/B]

Please. someone is waiting for helpful answers here.