The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball
Register FAQ Community Calendar Today's Posts Search

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #16 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 03, 2004, 12:17pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2001
Posts: 2,910
[QUOTE]Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Quote:
At NFHS state tournaments, there is often a very, very fine line between the ability of officials. An official who fails to give a preliminary signal every time, might just give one of the evaluators a reason to make a delineation between two very good officials.
Well, since I've worked the state tournament exactly once in the 7 seasons that I've worked a full HS varsity schedule and the 3 seasons that I've worked a full college varsity schedule, I could give a flying fig about what the observers think. B/c they're not observing me!
That's fine Chuck, do what works for you. My only point was that I don't think anyone could ever fault you for doing the mechanics by the book. I can think of times when leaving out the preliminary signal could lead to confusion.

Z
Reply With Quote
  #17 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 03, 2004, 12:19pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Just north of hell
Posts: 9,250
Send a message via AIM to Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
JMO, Z-man, but sometimes it's just not necessary. If A1 drives to the basket and is fouled in the act of shooting, does it really matter if it's a block, a push, or a "hack"? Everybody in the building knows that the shooter was fouled, and nobody cares what you call it. In those cases, I usually will just give the fist and then give a signal at the table. That's just me, and I know it's not exactly by the book, but I'm comfortable with it. If you don't need to communicate anything, then why bother? Again, that's just me.
Communication
I can think of lot's of reasons, but mainly for my partners. If they're doing they're job, they weren't watching my primary. Now they know what I called.
It often matters to the coaches. "Hey ref, what did your partner just call, it looked clean to me?" "He called a block coach."

Z
Giving the prelim foul signal is not the same as telling your partner what happens with the ball next. In fact, I would much rather know where the ball is going, who gets it, are we shooting, rather than know *what* the foul is.

I'm not all that concernd with dealing with the coaches in this sitch.
Reply With Quote
  #18 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 03, 2004, 12:49pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,674
The one point I see missing is vocalizing your call.

If you say, "Hold," "Hit," "Push," or more descriptive things like, "Body," " You got em in the head," the preliminary signal is pretty redundant.

I can see stressing a hand check, block/charge, or selling a push OOBs, but most calls don't need it.

Your voice is much more important, than a preliminary signal.
Reply With Quote
  #19 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 03, 2004, 12:53pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Houghton, U.P., Michigan
Posts: 9,953
Lightbulb

[QUOTE]Originally posted by zebraman
Quote:
That's fine Chuck, do what works for you. My only point was that I don't think anyone could ever fault you for doing the mechanics by the book. I can think of times when leaving out the preliminary signal could lead to confusion.

Z
Z,

You can't go wrong following the book.

I think you can note that most college officials will have college mechanics in their bags when they hit the high school floor.

Many high school officials will not even think about Section 230.b,c,d,e,h.

They tell us to speed up these games, and eliminating some redundancies is one of our ways to decrease dead ball time.

Chuck doesn't even stop to clear a net!
Let's go!!! Ball in!!

Personally, I may give a preliminary signal 30-40% of the time.

mick
Reply With Quote
  #20 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 03, 2004, 01:33pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 1999
Location: In the offseason.
Posts: 12,263
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
The one point I see missing is vocalizing your call.

If you say, "Hold," "Hit," "Push," or more descriptive things like, "Body," " You got em in the head," the preliminary signal is pretty redundant.

I can see stressing a hand check, block/charge, or selling a push OOBs, but most calls don't need it.

Your voice is much more important, than a preliminary signal.
Voice never replaces signals. There are often times that your voice can't be heard where a signal can almost always be seen.


Even on a 1:1 drive to the basket, some are not so obvious. What looks like a cleanly blocked shot to a coach/spectator may actually be all arm...with some body contact similar to some that you've been letting go. Is the coach going to think you're being inconsistent with the body contact since that's all he saw? A preliminary signal of "illegal use of hands" can defuse the situation before it even begeins. That tells the coach it was something different.
Reply With Quote
  #21 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 03, 2004, 01:48pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Posts: 2,674
Quote:
Originally posted by Camron Rust
Quote:
Originally posted by blindzebra
The one point I see missing is vocalizing your call.

If you say, "Hold," "Hit," "Push," or more descriptive things like, "Body," " You got em in the head," the preliminary signal is pretty redundant.

I can see stressing a hand check, block/charge, or selling a push OOBs, but most calls don't need it.

Your voice is much more important, than a preliminary signal.
Voice never replaces signals. There are often times that your voice can't be heard where a signal can almost always be seen.


Even on a 1:1 drive to the basket, some are not so obvious. What looks like a cleanly blocked shot to a coach/spectator may actually be all arm...with some body contact similar to some that you've been letting go. Is the coach going to think you're being inconsistent with the body contact since that's all he saw? A preliminary signal of "illegal use of hands" can defuse the situation before it even begeins. That tells the coach it was something different.
The coach usually does the little throw the head back and spin when they don't agree with your call. They are reacting to the whistle, not your signal. You can come out with a kick signal and it won't change what the coach WANTS your call to be.

I've came out with a player control foul WITH a preliminary signal and the coach did not settle down UNTIL I reported it to the table. It is a redundant mechanic that is fast becoming obsolete.

Reply With Quote
  #22 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 03, 2004, 02:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2000
Location: Just north of hell
Posts: 9,250
Send a message via AIM to Dan_ref
Quote:
Originally posted by ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
Communication
I can think of lot's of reasons, but mainly for my partners. If they're doing they're job, they weren't watching my primary.
They're not officiating your primary, but they see that the ball is there and you had a foul on a drive to the basket. If you don't come out with a PC signal, they also know that you're shooting FTs. That's really all they need to know, or probably care to know. You really think your partner cares if it's a push or a block?

Quote:
It often matters to the coaches. "Hey ref, what did your partner just call, it looked clean to me?"

"Coach, he got a lot better look at it than we did. I'm sure he'll tell you exactly what he had."

Quote:
At NFHS state tournaments, there is often a very, very fine line between the ability of officials. An official who fails to give a preliminary signal every time, might just give one of the evaluators a reason to make a delineation between two very good officials.
Well, since I've worked the state tournament exactly once in the 7 seasons that I've worked a full HS varsity schedule and the 3 seasons that I've worked a full college varsity schedule, I could give a flying fig about what the observers think. B/c they're not observing me!
Here's a picture of Chuck giving his big "BLOCK!!!" prelim signal:



Reply With Quote
  #23 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 03, 2004, 02:31pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,211
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
[/B]
Here's a picture of Chuck giving his big "BLOCK!!!" prelim signal:



[/B][/QUOTE]Chuck grew a little while he was in Florida. Must be the water.
Reply With Quote
  #24 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 03, 2004, 04:21pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,105
Send a message via AIM to ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by zebraman
My only point was that I don't think anyone could ever fault you for doing the mechanics by the book.
True enough, Z-man. Can't argue with that.
__________________
Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
Reply With Quote
  #25 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 03, 2004, 06:23pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref

Here's a picture of Chuck giving his big "BLOCK!!!" prelim signal:



Are you on vacation this week? YOu've got way, way too much time on your hands!!
Reply With Quote
  #26 (permalink)  
Old Tue Aug 03, 2004, 08:43pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,105
Send a message via AIM to ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by Dan_ref
Here's a picture of Chuck giving his big "BLOCK!!!" prelim signal:

That's obviously not me -- he's using closed fists. My mechanics are better than that.
__________________
Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
Reply With Quote
  #27 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 04, 2004, 07:48am
Huck Finn
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: Las Vegas
Posts: 3,347
How many people do their mechanics "by the book?" From what I've seen not many. Changing little things and letting your own personality is OK to me. I think what some are trying to say is communication is key. Whether it is a voice or a preliminary signal, I want my partners to know what I called and I want to know what they call. I couldn't really put a percentage on what I do most. If someone is going to the basket and is fouled I probably will use my voice. It is like everyone in the gym sees contact and knows what the call is. When they don't know what the call is then a prelim can come in handy. I had a college supervisor that wanted verbal communication immediately. His theory is your call has more credibility when everyone knows that you know what you have immediately. He also wanted the number of the offending player called out immediately too.
I was doing a game last night and called a foul on a kid. He asked me what he did and I told him specifically (you hit him on his right arm like this when he went to the hoop). He started to smile and I did too. I asked him "what you didn't think I knew what you did." Maybe he just thought I made the call just because it might have looked bad. It was funny. Not Ha Ha funny but funny anyway.
Reply With Quote
  #28 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 04, 2004, 09:09am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Houghton, U.P., Michigan
Posts: 9,953
Quote:
Originally posted by tomegun
I had a college supervisor that wanted ... [snip]... the number of the offending player called out immediately too.
This is a good mechanic for younger/newer officials to add to their repertoire.

By verbalizing the color and number, we are imprinting information that we will need in our short jog to the foul reporting area.

mick
Reply With Quote
  #29 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 04, 2004, 09:13am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by tomegun
. I think what some are trying to say is communication is key.
What's key is keeping the assignor happy. If he or she wants prelims, give 'em. If they want voice, use it. If not, don't. Pure and simple.
Reply With Quote
  #30 (permalink)  
Old Wed Aug 04, 2004, 11:51am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Western Mass.
Posts: 9,105
Send a message via AIM to ChuckElias
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by tomegun
I had a college supervisor that wanted ... [snip]... the number of the offending player called out immediately too.
This is a good mechanic for younger/newer officials to add to their repertoire.

By verbalizing the color and number, we are imprinting information that we will need in our short jog to the foul reporting area.
I've found that to be true as well, Mick. In addition, if FTs are to be shot, I will verbalize my shooter. That way my partner can keep track of him/her for me.
__________________
Any NCAA rules and interpretations in this post are relevant for men's games only!
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:43pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1