AHHH... Got it!
Someone once told me "Mike, if you can get this in your head you've got it in a nut shell".
Took a while but that makes sense.

[Edited by Mike Burns on Jan 14th, 2001 at 11:05 PM]

So is.......
 

a multiple foul, but should you see that called more often?

<I>a multiple foul, but should you see that called more often?</I>

I think that this is a little different.

There is the multiple foul in the rule book. Have I ever seen or heard about it being called? No. But it must be there for a reason - that is, <I>something</I> must have happened where it was decided by the rules committee that it was needed. Furthermore, they haven't removed it.

However, with a multiple foul you have discretion – one of the fouls generally happens first. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen a play in which a player was fouled at <I>exactly</I> the same time by two opponents.

However, in the case we are talking about – once both officials signal opposite signals (one block and one PC) there is no option but to go to the rule. The case book is clear – there is not any room for discussing what the appropriate actions are because they are spelled out for you.

Some officials will try to say that you should try to get out of it or get away with having one of the officials take back his call. How can any official do that without totally losing credibility?

If you look at the times that this has happened at the NCAA Division I level you will see that the officials went to the rule. When you make a mistake like this you don’t complicate it by trying to do something outside of the rules. Go back to the rules and they will be there to back you up after the game. However, if you and your partner (or partners) come up with something else you are now subject to <I>two</I> screw-ups on the same play!

Excellent point! I referred to Curtis Shaw previously in this post. He was the referee in the MSU - ISU Regional Championship game last year, in which his partners had a double whistle. Center had a block and the lead called a charge. The two got together and seemed to be heading toward going with just one call. Curtis came in and made the correct decision that a double foul was the only choice. Nobody liked it but it was the correct call!

1st, If niether of the officials make a signal, you can come together and decide what came first. Easy situation to get out of.

2nd, I think the case to make the blarge a double foul is becuase after a signal is given, how can you take it back? I suppose you can, but it does not look very good if you signal a block, then defer to the guy who called a PC (Imagine calling a shooting foul under the bucket, then coming out with a PC, just shouldn't happen). The "other" coach will be aboslutly correct in that you saw the play a different way. Since we don't have replay (and I don't mean TV) in basketball, the arrow is the only fair way to go.

3rd, Should the lead always take the call? no. The rule of thumb with my crew is when play is leaving one area, and going to another, the original primary should make the call. Theory is, he has been watching the whole play. On the other hand, if it is not coming out of a primary, whomever the play is going toward (usually the lead) should take the call.

A multiple is very different from this case. To be a multiple it has to be <u>teammates</u> fouling an opponent. On double, it is <u>opponents</u> fouling each other.

I agree! Take the drive all the way to the basket. You pick up the defense as the player moves to the basket and generally have a very good sense of the play.

BUT CONSIDER THIS!
 

However, the center or trail official may not see the entire play if a secondary defender has established position in the lane and takes the contact.

We handle it this way. If the primary defender takes the contact, the covering official should make the call. But if a secondary defender takes the contact on a play where the primary defender has been beat, the lead will probably have the best look at it and should take the call. If he's refereeing the defense and the lane, he should have no excuse for getting it wrong.

re: But consider this
 

NO doubt communication is the key.

Re: BUT CONSIDER THIS!
 

My experience with 3-man has taught me this: wherever the play originates from, that's who's call it is. I understand what you're saying, but I think the C can clearly determine if a defender had obtain LGP before the driver ir airborne. Perhaps my football experience comes into play a little bit, because often having to work with a crew of 3 or 4, one must take the ball carrier and the blocking immediately around the ball carrier. In a 6-person crew, it's alot easier to just take the ball carrier. Sometimes I think my vision is automatically geared towards seeing what lies beyond what's going to happen immediately.

I've never tried your philosophy. It sounds like it could work.

Re: Re: BUT CONSIDER THIS!
 

Your partner at lead is refereeing the lane and the defense. Who knows better whether that secondary defender has a LGP, your partner, who's been watching him during the entire play, or you, using your periphial vision?

Give it a try.

Mike, I'm not saying that the defender had or didn't have a legal guarding position. When the Trail and Lead both came out with their signals we didn't have much of a choice but to go with the double foul.

Double foul may be the case book call; however I totally agree with co2ice when he says this is a pre-game discussion point and you usually defer to the official the play is going towards especially in 2 man mechanics-regardless, don't signal too quickly when you hear the double whistle -find out what your partner's got and go with the correct decision- and do it quickly!!!

I've had double whistles like this happen several times and I always go to my partner and we very quickly decide which whistle was first, one of us backs down, and we sell it as such and move on. I've never had a problem with a coach over this. However, I can see how a real problem can arise when you try to sell a block on one player and a PC on the other. If you go with that, you are saying to the coaches that one or both officials are wrong and neither will budge. I guess I can visualize a situation where a defender moved in from the side and the offensive player threw a forearm at the same instant but man it would be hard to sell. To me, game management says get together, decide quickly, go with one call and move on. Oh yeah, and don't do it again.

I don't think anybody disagrees with you, Ralph. The problem arises when both officials give a preliminary signal. Then you have no other choice.