Last night in the first period, Lead and Trail had a double whistle in the dual area on the court. Lead comes out with a block call and trail is calling a charge at the same time. I was the center official and immediately saw these two officials giving their signals. The problem was they didn't make eye contact before giving these signals. I quickly ran in and got the officials together to discuss how to handle it. The trail official said he had the foul and was going to take it. I, having seen both their signals go up at the same time, said you have to go with the double foul and go to the arrow. The Lead official agreed and both officials went to the table and reported their fouls. Both coaches agreed on this and we went on. You never want this to happen but if it does this is the only way to handle. Just remember, if you do have a double whistle, make eye contact before giving your signal. I love this game!

Stupid question time :-)
 

I have a stupid question regarding this kind of situation. When both whitsles go off, whose call should it be? Do you simply defer to the official in whose area the infraction occurred, or do you both get together and decide how to do it, or always go with the double foul? This has confused me a bit and I was wondering. Thanks!
Matt

just wondering?
 

How can this be a double foul on a block/charge? Either the deffensive player established a legal guarding position or not.
On the other hand, I understand the dilemma of the double whistle, but when we have a double whistle I do not give a prelimenary. I would confer with, or defer to, the official that has the primary.
One thing for sure, this is a sitch none of us ever want to be in.

A tough situation we are all faces with at some time. The 2 officials need to quickly come togethr and make a FAST judgement. Normally, the final call should come from the primary official, but everyone will look bad on this one. Lesson learned......The "off ball" official should always freeze a moment before before making a signal. Tough to do, but it comes with experience.

It is the rule!

If both officials use the proper mechanics, this should never happen. Always stop the clock with a whistle and reaised fist. Make eye contact wtih your partner, especially when you have a double whistle. Don't go directly to the charge or block signal.

Yes how can this be both? Sounds like a couple of guys forgot to check their egos at the door! Cover this stuff in your pregame (dont ask whats a pregame) it will go along way to making the game flow more smoothly and adding credibility to yourselves and the reffing business. I always tell my partner that if theres a whistle underneath we make eye contact to see if both whistles went, and if we do, trail had better be ready to yeild unless he saw somthing early.

If both blow and give their prelim, you have no choice but to call a double foul. Perhaps both officials saw something different. Chances are one was wrong but that's of no consequence. Two officials saw the same play and had different interpretations of what happened.

A double foul can actually happen in this sitch. Suppose a defender moves underneath a dribbler for a block. At the exact same time, the dribbler hits the defender with a forearm to the head. Both players have fouled. It's no different than two players shoving each other in the low post. Double foul.

Even a good pregame can't prevent everything from happening!

B-ballref: You state that "even if one is wrong that is of no consequence", thus I stand by my statement you'll add credibility to yourself and the reffing business to defer to lead in this situation. It does save a hassle. And yes it could be a simultaneous double foul. But I know my pregames have saved a lot of grief from occuring and I encourage everyone to get into the habit of having them every game.

How do you add credibility to yourself by setting aside a rule?

And, why is it necessarily the lead's call?

OK so I went to the case book and found that 4.19.7C says:

"Contact occurs between A1 and B1 after the release and before airborne shooter A1 returns to the floor. One official calls a blocking foul on B1 and the other official calls a charging foul on A1. Even though airborne shooter A1 committed a charging foul, it is not a player-control foul because the the two fouls result in a double personal foul."

So, first of all, good call Kevin. Secondly, I STILL don't understand how a play can result in a block and a charge since the defender either obtained a legal guarding position or he didn't.
I am thinking more along the lines expressed by BktBallRef: "A double foul can actually happen in this sitch. Suppose a defender moves underneath a dribbler for a block. At the exact same time, the dribbler hits the defender with a forearm to the head. Both players have fouled. It's no different than two players shoving each other in the low post. Double foul."
The offense did not commit a player-control foul in this case but a seperate foul while returning to the floor.

<I>And, why is it necessarily the lead's call?</I>

Good point.

<I>Secondly, I STILL don't understand how a play can result in a block and a charge since the defender either obtained a legal guarding position or he didn't.</I>

This is true. That is why the rule (more specifically, the case) is there. You <B>can't</B> really have both - that is, the play can't be both a block AND a PC foul. Period.

However, it <B>can</b> occur that both calls are made on the same play. In that case you have no option other than to go to the double foul - by rule.

Just ask Curtis Shaw!

I know it's a crazy situation. The BLARGE call, as it's called, was discussed here about two months ago - maybe a month ago. You can check it out - it was a great discussion. Search for the keyword BLARGE - you'll find it.

And, to answer your question, the case book has specifically stated how to handle this scenario. It's a double foul, go with the AP. You, as the U, U1, U2, or even the R and crew chief, are NOT in a position to change what has been done. Once both SIGNALS have been made, it's a double foul and possession using the AP. That's just the way it is.

..Mike

AHHH... Got it!
Someone once told me "Mike, if you can get this in your head you've got it in a nut shell".
Took a while but that makes sense.

[Edited by Mike Burns on Jan 14th, 2001 at 11:05 PM]

So is.......
 

a multiple foul, but should you see that called more often?

<I>a multiple foul, but should you see that called more often?</I>

I think that this is a little different.

There is the multiple foul in the rule book. Have I ever seen or heard about it being called? No. But it must be there for a reason - that is, <I>something</I> must have happened where it was decided by the rules committee that it was needed. Furthermore, they haven't removed it.

However, with a multiple foul you have discretion – one of the fouls generally happens first. I don’t know that I’ve ever seen a play in which a player was fouled at <I>exactly</I> the same time by two opponents.

However, in the case we are talking about – once both officials signal opposite signals (one block and one PC) there is no option but to go to the rule. The case book is clear – there is not any room for discussing what the appropriate actions are because they are spelled out for you.

Some officials will try to say that you should try to get out of it or get away with having one of the officials take back his call. How can any official do that without totally losing credibility?

If you look at the times that this has happened at the NCAA Division I level you will see that the officials went to the rule. When you make a mistake like this you don’t complicate it by trying to do something outside of the rules. Go back to the rules and they will be there to back you up after the game. However, if you and your partner (or partners) come up with something else you are now subject to <I>two</I> screw-ups on the same play!

Excellent point! I referred to Curtis Shaw previously in this post. He was the referee in the MSU - ISU Regional Championship game last year, in which his partners had a double whistle. Center had a block and the lead called a charge. The two got together and seemed to be heading toward going with just one call. Curtis came in and made the correct decision that a double foul was the only choice. Nobody liked it but it was the correct call!

1st, If niether of the officials make a signal, you can come together and decide what came first. Easy situation to get out of.

2nd, I think the case to make the blarge a double foul is becuase after a signal is given, how can you take it back? I suppose you can, but it does not look very good if you signal a block, then defer to the guy who called a PC (Imagine calling a shooting foul under the bucket, then coming out with a PC, just shouldn't happen). The "other" coach will be aboslutly correct in that you saw the play a different way. Since we don't have replay (and I don't mean TV) in basketball, the arrow is the only fair way to go.

3rd, Should the lead always take the call? no. The rule of thumb with my crew is when play is leaving one area, and going to another, the original primary should make the call. Theory is, he has been watching the whole play. On the other hand, if it is not coming out of a primary, whomever the play is going toward (usually the lead) should take the call.

A multiple is very different from this case. To be a multiple it has to be <u>teammates</u> fouling an opponent. On double, it is <u>opponents</u> fouling each other.

I agree! Take the drive all the way to the basket. You pick up the defense as the player moves to the basket and generally have a very good sense of the play.

BUT CONSIDER THIS!
 

However, the center or trail official may not see the entire play if a secondary defender has established position in the lane and takes the contact.

We handle it this way. If the primary defender takes the contact, the covering official should make the call. But if a secondary defender takes the contact on a play where the primary defender has been beat, the lead will probably have the best look at it and should take the call. If he's refereeing the defense and the lane, he should have no excuse for getting it wrong.

re: But consider this
 

NO doubt communication is the key.

Re: BUT CONSIDER THIS!
 

My experience with 3-man has taught me this: wherever the play originates from, that's who's call it is. I understand what you're saying, but I think the C can clearly determine if a defender had obtain LGP before the driver ir airborne. Perhaps my football experience comes into play a little bit, because often having to work with a crew of 3 or 4, one must take the ball carrier and the blocking immediately around the ball carrier. In a 6-person crew, it's alot easier to just take the ball carrier. Sometimes I think my vision is automatically geared towards seeing what lies beyond what's going to happen immediately.

I've never tried your philosophy. It sounds like it could work.

Re: Re: BUT CONSIDER THIS!
 

Your partner at lead is refereeing the lane and the defense. Who knows better whether that secondary defender has a LGP, your partner, who's been watching him during the entire play, or you, using your periphial vision?

Give it a try.

Mike, I'm not saying that the defender had or didn't have a legal guarding position. When the Trail and Lead both came out with their signals we didn't have much of a choice but to go with the double foul.

Double foul may be the case book call; however I totally agree with co2ice when he says this is a pre-game discussion point and you usually defer to the official the play is going towards especially in 2 man mechanics-regardless, don't signal too quickly when you hear the double whistle -find out what your partner's got and go with the correct decision- and do it quickly!!!

I've had double whistles like this happen several times and I always go to my partner and we very quickly decide which whistle was first, one of us backs down, and we sell it as such and move on. I've never had a problem with a coach over this. However, I can see how a real problem can arise when you try to sell a block on one player and a PC on the other. If you go with that, you are saying to the coaches that one or both officials are wrong and neither will budge. I guess I can visualize a situation where a defender moved in from the side and the offensive player threw a forearm at the same instant but man it would be hard to sell. To me, game management says get together, decide quickly, go with one call and move on. Oh yeah, and don't do it again.

I don't think anybody disagrees with you, Ralph. The problem arises when both officials give a preliminary signal. Then you have no other choice.

that's exactly what I'm talking about Bktball ref

I know that I am joining this thread late but lets break down the mechanics of this play depending upon whether a two- or three- person crew is officiating the game. It should further be clarified that this type of play is almost always on a drive to the basket.

Two Person: Convention tells us that the official who has the play coming toward him/her should make the call. Having said that lets break that down further. When the ball is on the strong side (the side of the court that the Lead is on) the L should make the call if the drive is coming toward him. This applies whether the L is on the same side of the court as the Trail or on the opposite side of the court from the T. If the drive is made from the from the weak side (the side of court that is opposite from the L) the T should make the call. When there is a double whistle and the ball is on the strong side the T should not make any preliminary signal unless he/she wants the call then he/she should come on strong with an extra blast or two of the whistle before making a preliminary signal.

Three Person: Since we can say the L and T are on the same side of the court we can say that when the drive is from the strong side of the court the L will have the play coming toward him/her and should be the primary official to make the call but if the T wants the call just do like in the two person scenario. When the drive comes from the weak side (the Center's side), the C will take the drive all the way to the basket.

Having buried everybody up to their eye balls in horse manure it should be remembered that in guarding/screening
(block/charge) situations we should always be refereeing the defense. If we are refereeing the defense I believe that we will see many more charge calls and a lot less block calls.

But I forgot the most important thing PREGAME CONFERENCE with your partner/s.

Mark,

No one is denying the things that you wrote. They're all true and good points. We're moreso discussing what to do after it happens. Obviously we have a problem after a double whistle in which both officials give a prelim.

TH