Obnoxious Coach

[SMEngmann]

I was working a summer high school tournament (BV level) in a three person crew with two partners who didn't have tons of 3 person experience. During most of the game, coach A acted so politely toward me that it seemed phony, particularly if he had a question about a call. By the end of the game, it became clear that he was trying to work me, as he asked many simple questions that he clearly knew the answer to. Finally, in a close game he tried to argue with me about the number of players that could occupy lane spaces, and he would not accept my answer and delayed the game by calling one of my partners over to confirm the answer (after I'd told him that I was right and didn't need any help). Unfortunately P1 doesn't administer and dutifully comes over and gives the same answer I gave, giving the coach the impression that he could draw a conference when he wanted. Minutes later I'm the C in front of his bench when A1 hits a shot from the elbow to tie the game at the buzzer. Coach immediately tries to convince everyone in the gym that the shot was a 3, although it was plain to see that it was not. He even goes so far as to line up his team to shake hands with the other team. At this point I tell him that we are going to OT and I warned him about his conduct. We played the OT period, during which I overheard when I was L him make a similar comment about a 2 being a 3.

In my opinion, we should have dinged this coach with a T for attempting to influence a decision and just behaving in an unsportsmanlike matter. However, from a practical perspective, we have a tie game going into OT and calling a T for the coach's actions in that situation and we might have needed a security escort. Should the T still be issued, or should we just warn the coach and dismiss him as an annoyance?

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by SMEngmann
I was working a summer high school tournament (BV level) in a three person crew with two partners who didn't have tons of 3 person experience. During most of the game, coach A acted so politely toward me that it seemed phony, particularly if he had a question about a call. By the end of the game, it became clear that he was trying to work me, as he asked many simple questions that he clearly knew the answer to. Finally, in a close game he tried to argue with me about the number of players that could occupy lane spaces, and he would not accept my answer and delayed the game by calling one of my partners over to confirm the answer (after I'd told him that I was right and didn't need any help). Unfortunately P1 doesn't administer and dutifully comes over and gives the same answer I gave, giving the coach the impression that he could draw a conference when he wanted. Minutes later I'm the C in front of his bench when A1 hits a shot from the elbow to tie the game at the buzzer. Coach immediately tries to convince everyone in the gym that the shot was a 3, although it was plain to see that it was not. He even goes so far as to line up his team to shake hands with the other team. At this point I tell him that we are going to OT and I warned him about his conduct. We played the OT period, during which I overheard when I was L him make a similar comment about a 2 being a 3.

In my opinion, we should have dinged this coach with a T for attempting to influence a decision and just behaving in an unsportsmanlike matter. However, from a practical perspective, we have a tie game going into OT and calling a T for the coach's actions in that situation and we might have needed a security escort. Should the T still be issued, or should we just warn the coach and dismiss him as an annoyance?

Not much you could do. I'd be really tempted to whack him over the FT spaces. I'd ask him if he wanted a time out when he tried to bring my partner over, if not at that point he is purposely delaying the game.

[SMEngmann]

Agreed blindzebra, in fact that's what finally ended the conversation when my partner came over. I wanted to do it earlier and I tried my hardest to communicate to my partner (who I'd never worked with before)short of hand jestures waving him to stay back not to come over and dignify the coach with a response. Unfortunately, though, he came over, and although he meant well, I thought he undermined the integrity of the crew, making us look indecisive. I was in the midst of warning the coach about delaying the game when my partner comes trotting over when the coach called him over. At that point I can't warn him or T him because my partner's already there until my partner answers him.

Personally, I think this coach is worse than any of the howlers I've encountered because at least the howlers are more direct in their approach.

[tomegun]

It sounds like you have a good handle on the situation. It seems like you could have given the coach a warning at some point, talked to you partners during a dead ball and then the coach is fair game during OT.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by SMEngmann


In my opinion, we should have dinged this coach with a T for attempting to influence a decision and just behaving in an unsportsmanlike matter.

You answered your own question right there, didn't you? And if any official has to worry about needing security just because they T'd up a coach, well, his association shouldn't be providing officials to that league in the first place. You should NEVER have to worry about making a call and then having to face threatening fan reaction because of it. It's just not worth officiating under those circumstances.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by SMEngmann
I was in the midst of warning the coach about delaying the game when my partner comes trotting over when the coach called him over. At that point I can't warn him or T him because my partner's already there until my partner answers him.

Why does your partner arriving mean you can't T him? I'm not saying I'd have handled it any better, because I still need a lot of work in this area. But if you warned him once and then started to turn away, it would be fine to signal your partner to stay away, and then to T the coach if he kept on yammering. Crew credibility was damaged, not only because of what your partner did, but also because you didn't take care of business.

On the other hand, it sounds like it didn't escalate any further, even though he was still muttering about it later. And although he tried to get histrionic just before the OT, the whole situation never got completely out of control. So I think you can give yourself credit for mostly keeping him in line. Perhaps a B+ for the total performance.

[Adam]

Wouldn't a T have started the overtime rather than ended the 4th quarter here?

[Kelvin green]

Here is my question...
How many times did you dignify his his questions? If he knows the answer did you still give him a response. Did you get sucked in?

Even if it is polite, can you tell him he does not need to ask or question every call? Can you make a comment like c'mon coach you know the answer? or if it is way "stupid" tell hime "give me a break!"?

What did you body language say? Did it look like you were in "trouble" with him? Standing there talking to a coach about lane spaces.... were you loud enough to tell him that you had heard enough? Were you definititve? Were you in control? or did it look like you were equivocative? Ask him if he wants a time-out to talk about this.. If he doesnt then you are done and tell him so in no uncertain terms.

Here is an observation of mine. Somehow we think in the officiating world that we have to use secret hand signals etc to communicate.

There's nothing wrong with strong communication on the floor. I have been in games where I will verbally tell my partner that I have isolation play, or that partner has clock, or I have last second shot.

Tell your partner as he is coming over that its taken care of that you have it. If your partner is coming go meet him half way and tell him what's up and that he does not need to be there. Go back to coach tell him the decision stands and that you have heard enough. Then you can whack him..

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
Here is my question...
How many times did you dignify his his questions? If he knows the answer did you still give him a response. Did you get sucked in?

Even if it is polite, can you tell him he does not need to ask or question every call? Can you make a comment like c'mon coach you know the answer? or if it is way "stupid" tell hime "give me a break!"?

What did you body language say? Did it look like you were in "trouble" with him? Standing there talking to a coach about lane spaces.... were you loud enough to tell him that you had heard enough? Were you definititve? Were you in control? or did it look like you were equivocative? Ask him if he wants a time-out to talk about this.. If he doesnt then you are done and tell him so in no uncertain terms.

Here is an observation of mine. Somehow we think in the officiating world that we have to use secret hand signals etc to communicate.

There's nothing wrong with strong communication on the floor. I have been in games where I will verbally tell my partner that I have isolation play, or that partner has clock, or I have last second shot.

Tell your partner as he is coming over that its taken care of that you have it. If your partner is coming go meet him half way and tell him what's up and that he does not need to be there. Go back to coach tell him the decision stands and that you have heard enough. Then you can whack him..

As I read the original post I was thinking exacly these same things.

Nicely worded and excellent questions/advice.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by Snaqwells
Wouldn't a T have started the overtime rather than ended the 4th quarter here?

Yep.

[ShadowStripes]

As soon as you recognize the coach's attempt to "game" you into useless conversations, I think you can politely inform him that mindless chatter will cease and let your partners know ASAP that you have spoken with the coach. 90% of the time, a friendly chat and a roll of the eyes will end this nonsense. No need for technicals in this matter.

[SMEngmann]

Originally posted by ShadowStripes
As soon as you recognize the coach's attempt to "game" you into useless conversations, I think you can politely inform him that mindless chatter will cease and let your partners know ASAP that you have spoken with the coach. 90% of the time, a friendly chat and a roll of the eyes will end this nonsense. No need for technicals in this matter.

I agree, but our lack of crew chemistry here was the problem. When my partner acknowledged coach A, it made that option unavailable to me until partner had addressed coach. Any technical then became unavailable to me at that immediate moment because how can I justify a T to a coach for talking to a partner who acknowledged it. Also, since this was a 3 person game, I was tableside after calling fouls and I generally like using the tableside mechanic as an opportunity to communicate with coaches. By the end of the game, this coach clearly had abused the tableside mechanics and started to go over the top.

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

You answered your own question right there, didn't you? And if any official has to worry about needing security just because they T'd up a coach, well, his association shouldn't be providing officials to that league in the first place. You should NEVER have to worry about making a call and then having to face threatening fan reaction because of it. It's just not worth officiating under those circumstances.

I was being a bit fececious with my remark about the security escort. While starting OT with a technical here may have been an option, at that time, it probably would have been over-officious to do so and I don't see how it would have helped control the game. In fact, a T here may have caused things to fall apart at the seams. Although I wanted to give the T, I'm not sure what practical purpose it would have served, so I didn't give it.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by SMEngmann

While starting OT with a technical here may have been an option, at that time, it probably would have been over-officious to do so and I don't see how it would have helped control the game. In fact, a T here may have caused things to fall apart at the seams. Although I wanted to give the T, I'm not sure what practical purpose it would have served, so I didn't give it.
[/B]

The practical purpose is that you're not letting a coach get away with behaving in an unsportsmanlike manner, as you said in your own words. And you probably won't have to worry about this clown going down the same road with you again the next time that you meet up with him either. If the T is deserved, never second-guess yourself for handing it out. It's all just part of the job.

[SF]

I think sometimes we let coaches cross the line - sometimes by a lot - at the end of the game, because we don't want to affect the game. While, I agree with that to some extent - don't become extra sensitive at the end - when the coach crosses that line, don't be afraid to whack him.