The Big "X"

[rainmaker]

At camp this weekend, another camper and I were working with one of the evaluators (3-person). I was lead, camper-partner (CP) was trail, eval (E) was at C. I notice a competetive match-up just moving into my primary at the top of the key with A2 getting into position to receive a pass, and B2 behind her, and beat to the play. B2 grabs A1's jersey with both hands. A2 wasn't hampered much, and I was going to give it a pass, when E (at C) cracks the whistle and comes up with The Big X -- yup, an intentional foul. Coach B and crowd go bananas, of course.

Later, when we talked about it, E sounded very reasonable and her thinking made sense, but I would never have even thought about it. CP and I just looked at her and listened with a sort of blank stare, and nodded. Her rationale was that this was "not a basketball play," and the book talks about taking away a clear advantage (the actually wording is, "to neutralize an opponent's obvious advantageous position"), and not making a play on the ball. These reasons made sense to me, and besides she's a very experienced ref around here, who works as high as some of the minor D1 conferences.

I'd be interested in y'all's opinions on this call.

[JRutledge]

Hard to say, I was not there. But there is a movement to call more of these types of calls. Maybe that was something that she saw on a tape and looked similar a play reviewed?

Peace

[BktBallRef]

I think we all can agree it's definitely an intentional foul.

Have the 'nads/ONIONS to call it is another thing.

Edited as per rainmaker.



[Edited by BktBallRef on Jul 5th, 2004 at 07:13 PM]

[mick]

Oh..., so many fouls are intentional! [sigh!]
We draw our own lines.
In your sitch, I have "Holding".
mick

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Have the 'nads/boobs ...

Onions, Tony. Onions!

[stripes]

Originally posted by mick
Oh..., so many fouls are intentional! [sigh!]
We draw our own lines.
In your sitch, I have "Holding".
mick

I had a play like this at camp a week ago and had the big X myself. Why? because the play fit the criteria for the big X. Clear path to the basket, obvious advantgeous position for the offensive player and 2 hands in the back. Foul wasn't hard or at the end of the game, but it was intentional.

Had the stones to call it, got hired into another league, partly because I called it.

[mick]

Originally posted by stripes
Clear path to the basket, obvious advantgeous position for the offensive player and 2 hands in the back. Foul wasn't hard or at the end of the game, but it was intentional.

Had the stones to call it, got hired into another league, partly because I called it.

stripes,
That's an easy Intentional, unlike Juulie's original sitch.
A eunuch coulda called yours.
mick

[TravelinMan]

Originally posted by mick

stripes,
That's an easy Intentional, unlike Juulie's original sitch.
A eunuch coulda called yours.
mick

Yeah, but the eunich wouldn't had sounded as good as stripes or you.

[Nevadaref]

Originally posted by rainmaker
At camp this weekend, another camper and I were working with one of the evaluators (3-person). I was lead, camper-partner (CP) was trail, eval (E) was at C. I notice a competetive match-up just moving into my primary at the top of the key with A2 getting into position to receive a pass, and B2 behind her, and beat to the play. B2 grabs A1's jersey with both hands. ...

Juulie,
When I got to here I thought intentional.
For me grabbing an opponent's jersey is always an intentional foul. Of course, this thinking probably comes from my soccer reffing experience, where it is a yellow card.
I agree with those that said it is not a basketball play. This is not just an ordinary foul during the course of the game, therefore, I believe that it needs to be penalized more harshly.

But what does any of this thread have to do with the X on the floor in front of the scorer?

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Nevadaref

Juulie,
When I got to here I thought intentional.
For me grabbing an opponent's jersey is always an intentional foul. Of course, this thinking probably comes from my soccer reffing experience, where it is a yellow card.
I agree with those that said it is not a basketball play. This is not just an ordinary foul during the course of the game, therefore, I believe that it needs to be penalized more harshly.

But what does any of this thread have to do with the X on the floor in front of the scorer?

Nothing at all. That's a small x.

I see the point about calling it intentional. I just was surprised, and it got me thinking.

One thing I'm having trouble getting the hang of is when to get tough and when to be flexible. At the moment of the call, I thought she was really overreacting, but her explanation makes sense, and now I see that most of you (with one exception worthy of consideration) agreed with it. I expect it's just a matter of logging some more floor time, but I wish I could come up with a more intellectual rationale for what needs stern response and what doesn't.

[NICK]

The official must judge only the action not the intent.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by NICK
The official must judge only the action not the intent.

Maybe in FIBA, Nick, but your statement is completely wrong for NFHS and NCAA rulesets. The whole idea of an intentional foul is that the official MUST judge the intent. Here's the definition straight from the NFHS rulebook:

Rule 4-19-3- "An intentional foul is a personal or technical foul designed to stop or keep the clock from starting, to neutralize an opponent's obvious advantageous position, contact away from the ball or when not playing the ball. It may or may not be premeditated and is not based on the severity of the act. A foul shall also be ruled as intentional if while playing the ball a player causes excessive contact with an opponent".

From a "Point of Emphasis" on intentional fouls in the 2000/2001 rulebook- "An intentional foul has occurred when a team is obviously committing a foul, late in the game, to stop the clock and force the opponent into a throw-in or free-throw situation. Acts that must be deemed intentional include grabbing a player from behind, wrapping the arms around a player, grabing a player away from the ball, grabbing or shoving a player from behind when an easy basket may be scored, when coach/player says "watch, we're going to foul", excessive contact on a player attempting a shot--- and the last one that happens to be very germane to this thread- GRABBING/HOLDING A PLAYER BY THEIR JERSEY IN ORDER TO IMPEDE THEIR PROGRESS."

[Robmoz]

JR...your advice....

DO you call the jersey grab (off the ball) when you see it or do you verbalize a warning and let the play continue?

Late in the game in an obvious need to foul situation do you call the "X" when you hear the coach calling for the foul and his/her player complies?

[zebraman]

Rainmaker,

That's an interesting one. Personally, I would have called a simple "holding" foul unless the grabbing of the jersey had prevented an obvious easy basket by A1 or maybe if I felt I needed to clean the game up and other methods had failed. Maybe your partner had seen something in the game that made her think she needed to make a point.

I see so much physical play allowed at the college level that I'd much rather see pushing and shoving in the post (to me, those aren't basketball plays) chosen as ways to "make a point" by a college official rather than a jersey grab.

Z

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Robmoz
JR...your advice....

1) DO you call the jersey grab (off the ball) when you see it or do you verbalize a warning and let the play continue?

2) Late in the game in an obvious need to foul situation do you call the "X" when you hear the coach calling for the foul and his/her player complies?

1) Rob, I don't think that I'd ever warn a player for shirt-grabbing. I'd call that foul right away. Jmo, but if you let the clutching and grabbing go- on or off ball- you're gonna give yourself nothing but headaches later on in the game. You want to be as consistent as possible in your calls from beginning to end. That way the players and coaches always know what to expect and they're not getting any surprises. I think that the obvious problem with just issuing a warning one time is that now you're almost committed to giving every player on the floor a similar warning. That isn't gonna work when you get into an end-of-game situation, and the call HAS to be made. I think that the only real judgement involved with shirt-grabbing is whether you are gonna call it an intentional foul, or just a common foul- depending on the circumstances. My own advice, however, is to ignore my advice. Talk this particular play over with whoever your local supervisor/trainer/rules interpreter happens to be, and get some direction from him on how he wants the call made. The ideal is to have all officials in YOUR area try to consistently make the same call.

2)No, I wouldn't call an intentional foul on a defender if I didn't feel that the act itself was intentional. No matter what is said, if a defender is going for the ball- which is the criteria that I use, I usually won't call an intentional foul unless the defender really happens to rough up his opponent while he's committing that foul. I will mention to a coach (if I get a chance) that he should maybe find another way of telling his kids to foul. A lot of coaches now use code words to let their ballplayers know when they want them to foul. Again, this is another call that you should run by your rules interpreter though. His thinking may be different than mine, and he's the one that you have to keep happy- not me.