Shotclock Question

[Snake~eyes]

I don't use a shotclock but I was just curious as I thought of somthing.

A1 has the ball and is fouled in the act of shooting as the shotclock goes off. The order is, A1 is fouled, shotclock sounds, A1 releases the ball. 1) Shot goes in 2) shot does not go in

What would be the correct procedure?

[BktBallRef]

Now, before someone gives you the answer, let me ask you this.

Forget the shot clock for a moment. What would happen if this same scenario occurred as time expired in the game?

[Snake~eyes]

Way to ruin my hypothetical.

[BktBallRef]

Made ya think.

[Dave Dow]

Add this to the senerio, A1 when releasing the ball goes horizontal into the vertical plain of B1, no foul is called and the coach for A1 says that the refs lost the game for them with the none call.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Dave Dow
.... A1 when releasing the ball goes horizontal ....

GOES HORIZONTAL!?!?!? Wow, is this gal a gymnast?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Dave Dow
Add this to the senerio, A1 when releasing the ball goes horizontal into the vertical plain of B1, no foul is called and the coach for A1 says that the refs lost the game for them with the none call.

Who cares what the coach thinks?

[BktBallRef]

That's what I thought, nobody!
Don't worry about the coaches, DD.
"Get in, get done, get out!"

[Snake~eyes]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Who cares what the coach thinks?

Agreed, not our job to please the coaches.

[TravelinMan]

Originally posted by Snake~eyes

Agreed, not our job to please the coaches.

OK, I've got a ton to get off my chest about coaches and players and officials.

The way I see it, if kids and coaches made as few mistakes during games as the basketball officials did, the whole "game" would be much more enjoyable to watch.
Unfortunately, the scapegoat theory abounds in a lot of gyms, and the danger of this type of thinking is that teams never face the stark reality of their own errors, which certainly have more to do with a loss on any given night than any call or two made by an official.
In order for players and coaches to fully comprehend the role of officials, they have to place themselves in the position of arbitrator.
It's no easy task, I assure you.
Coaches should convey to their charges the importance of understanding the role of the basketball referee in high school play. They can do that in the following ways:
1. Appreciate what it means to know and administer all the rules
Few, if any, players or coaches know the rule book inside and out like a basketball official does. When problems do arise, most participants talk and complain about areas of the game that they don't even understand.
Coaches, can you imagine playing poker or pool and not knowing the rules?
You wouldn't even take a chance against an opponent if you didn't understand the game or didn't know the in's and the out's, rules-wise.
And yet the majority of high school basketball coaches today couldn't pass a rules test that is given annually to referees if their very lives depended on it.
Consider that.
And then consider how that misguided philosophy carries over into the locker room and rubs off onto players.
Food for thought, at least.
2. Appreciate the uniformity of the officiating profession
Most players and coaches also fail to appreciate how hard high school officials work to maintain a high level of uniformity in their profession.
This is a nationwide thing, my friends, not some sub-standard group, blowing whistles arbitrarily to earn a few bucks.
The training, both physical and mental, that goes into becoming an official is arduous and tedious.
The basic training for interscholastic coaches pales in comparison to IAABO certification and work.
And, no coaches that I know are asked to pass a standard examination to be eligible to coach a team every year.
Officials take an annual exam, and the refs I know take great pride in their studying and research for that yearly test.
Officials also face strict evaluations, another area lacking in the coaching profession.
From dress to decorum, referees statewide have coaches beat hands-down.
3. Appreciate the difficulty of the job
In this day and age, especially, refereeing a high school basketball game is no small task. Oh, there are those who cling to the idea that an official will please half of the people all of the time - with apologies to Abe Lincoln - but the fact of the matter is this: In our society, referees face the potential onslaught of harsh words and deeds during and after a contest every time out.
Granted, most nights, things go smoothly, but the potential for danger is always there.
4. Teach your players that officials love the game, too
Many high school basketball officials were once great players.
Imagine that.
Some have coached as well, but most display a passion for the game that translates into long hours on the road without the accompanying headlines that coaches and players can look forward to the next day after a game.
5. Officials are people, too
Treat your incoming referees like you would want to be treated, especially in your own gymnasium.
Having towels, soap, a light lunch and beverage, and a clean, roomy place to dress are all personal touches that each and every school should strive to offer for the basketball referees who frequent their schools.
Show you care by greeting refs when they arrive.
Make the extra effort.
It won't go unnoticed, and it will certainly be appreciated.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by TravelinMan

1. Appreciate what it means to know and administer all the rules ...

3...referees face the potential onslaught of harsh words and deeds during and after a contest every time out.

4. Teach your players that officials love the game, too
Many high school basketball officials were once great players.

Jack, you know from your extensive reading that "virtues" aren't an issue for many people anymore, if they ever really were. I'm especially thinking of "disinterestedness" as used in the 1800's. This didn't mean that one didn't care, only that one's whole being wasn't tied up in something, and that a neutral perspective was possible. That's what you're really advocating, and it is indeed a virtue, but not one most people would even acknowledge the existence of.

Most people are so wrapped up in their own little egos that "point of view" isn't something they can even comprehend as possible. It basically boils down to, "I'm always right." Usually, this is firmly believed either on the mistaken notion that self-love means never saying no to oneself or one's urges, or it comes from a sort of false affinity-group-idolatry -- my racial group is the best, my social group is the most, my university is the smartest, my religion is the most insightful, or whatever.

What parents especially don't seem to grasp is that it is impossible to give your child everything s/he wants, and even if you could, you shouldn't. Children need to learn boundaries and limits and how to deal with those. Parents should be pleased when refs check the kids' attitude. Parents should want their children to learn to respect people who get in the way of their little temper tantrums, and don't allow them to think of themselves as the center of the universe. Children who understand that they cannot control the tides, and that they won't always win, and that other people may see things differently grow up to be much happier. Unfortunately, parents don't always have that perspective, either.

All we can do is set an example, and spread the attitude. One of the problems I see in the refereeing world is refs who don't have a particularly disinterested perspective and either fly off the handle, or try to please everyone, or try to convince everyone, or have a pretty good attitude on the court, but a lousy attitude elsewhere. People like you and me, who really are more smart and mature than so many others can only keep walking and talking the walk and talk and hope that others catch on.

[TravelinMan]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Jack, you know from your extensive reading that "virtues" aren't an issue for many people anymore, if they ever really were. I'm especially thinking of "disinterestedness" as used in the 1800's. This didn't mean that one didn't care, only that one's whole being wasn't tied up in something, and that a neutral perspective was possible. That's what you're really advocating, and it is indeed a virtue, but not one most people would even acknowledge the existence of.

Most people are so wrapped up in their own little egos that "point of view" isn't something they can even comprehend as possible. It basically boils down to, "I'm always right." Usually, this is firmly believed either on the mistaken notion that self-love means never saying no to oneself or one's urges, or it comes from a sort of false affinity-group-idolatry -- my racial group is the best, my social group is the most, my university is the smartest, my religion is the most insightful, or whatever.

What parents especially don't seem to grasp is that it is impossible to give your child everything s/he wants, and even if you could, you shouldn't. Children need to learn boundaries and limits and how to deal with those. Parents should be pleased when refs check the kids' attitude. Parents should want their children to learn to respect people who get in the way of their little temper tantrums, and don't allow them to think of themselves as the center of the universe. Children who understand that they cannot control the tides, and that they won't always win, and that other people may see things differently grow up to be much happier. Unfortunately, parents don't always have that perspective, either.

All we can do is set an example, and spread the attitude. One of the problems I see in the refereeing world is refs who don't have a particularly disinterested perspective and either fly off the handle, or try to please everyone, or try to convince everyone, or have a pretty good attitude on the court, but a lousy attitude elsewhere. People like you and me, who really are more smart and mature than so many others can only keep walking and talking the walk and talk and hope that others catch on.

Juulie, I only wish I could express myself as beautifully and incisively as you have just done. You have captured the essence of what I said. A good official must possess the virtue of disinterestedness. The person who tries to do right, simply because it IS right, and not because it will benefit them in any way, is being disinterested. It's all a matter of ethics.

Thanks for putting me "on your team".

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by TravelinMan
Juulie, I only wish I could express myself as beautifully and incisively as you have just done. You have captured the essence of what I said.

My sister has a T-shirt which I ought to wear, most of the time. It says, "My mind works like lightning -- one brilliant flash and then it's gone!" It's nice when the brilliant flash is actually visible to others...

[TravelinMan]

Originally posted by rainmaker

My sister has a T-shirt which I ought to wear, most of the time. It says, "My mind works like lightning -- one brilliant flash and then it's gone!" It's nice when the brilliant flash is actually visible to others...

That's a funny T-shirt. I always look for funny shirts. I brought one for camp last week that I thought was appropriate what with having to perform under a microscope. It says "I can only please one person a day. Today is not your day. And tomorrow isn't looking real good either".

[BktBallRef]

You two should get a room. YUCK!