hitting on arms during rebound

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
See an exception to everything..

The scary part is that some of us have to use common sense and judgement in these kinds of plays.

What exactly is the exception to the rules of verticality that are you talking about? Just wanna make sure that I understand. No matter what, you still can't call a foul on a player if he's just raising his hands within his vertical plane. Even if he contacts an opponent. That's a given, by rule. There is NO common sense or judgement attached to that call, and there is no RULE saying otherwise.

[Kelvin green]

My comment was specifically to Cameron..

[ShoeBall]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
Andrew, transfer the same rules concepts of "verticality" to a defender/rebounder putting his arm out horizontally to the side, instead of vertically directly over his head. If an opponent runs into that arm, the foul(if you call a foul) is gonna be on the defender/rebounder now, isn't it? And it doesn't matter whether the defender/rebounder's arm is motionless(already there) or in the act of going out to the side when the contact occurs, does it? Even though the defender/rebounder's arm might be motionless horizontally when the contact occurs, that defender/rebounder has still caused the illegal contact.

Ok thank you very much Jurassic. You've fully convinced me now with that rationale.


So defensive rebounders have a nice little trick "up their sleeves" if in a rebounding bind, eh? I don't think too many players are very aware of this possibility available to them to secure a defensive/offensive rebound! Or at least make sure the opponent doesn't get the board!

Question is, what proportion of refs will support his tactic? Anybody care to estimate a proportion?



[Edited by ShoeBall on Jun 22nd, 2004 at 11:55 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by ShoeBall
[/B]

So defensive rebounders have a nice little trick "up their sleeves" if in a rebounding bind, eh? I don't think too many players are very aware of this possibility available to them to secure a defensive/offensive rebound! Or at least make sure the opponent doesn't get the board!

[/B][/QUOTE]I doubt very much that you would see this play very often.I'd say about 99.9% of the time the contact would be on the torso(back) first, but if it was up top, it's usually off to the side somewhat, and not directly above a rebounder.

[Rickref]

Does this vertical "cone" concept overide the principle that the person occupied this space first?

[Hawks Coach]

Rick
Yes., the verticality concept does not really care whether A was over B before B went up. Think of the rule reversed, where B is blocking A's shot. IF B extends his hads horizontally over A's shoulders, B could prevent A from jumping by the "B got there first" concept. But clearly, if B extends arms over a and A jumps, the contact is B's fault.

In reality, most contact is the fault of the defender unless they stay within their vertical space. Offense can have every space but that space, and can even have that space without contact. Pretty much, as soon as there is contact, and one person stayed in their vertical space and engaged in normal basketball movements (jumping, reaching up, etc.), the other is at fault.

[Rickref]

Hawk,
Your point is well taken. However, how about A1 drives to the basket, elevates and extends his over B1. B1 cannot elevate straight up and hit that arm in the act of shooting and have that not be called a foul. IMHO the principal of verticality protects the defender when the offensive player is responsible for the contact, but if the defender is responsible, you as a coach surely wants that call, and I believe you deserve it.

[cmathews]

Rickref,
It most certainly can happen without B being called for a foul, and it should be called/not called that way. The player whether they be offense or defense is entitled to the space above them, no matter when or how they choose to use that space. If there is contact in that space it is the resposibility of the player who is not entitled to be there.

[Adam]

Originally posted by Rickref
Hawk,
Your point is well taken. However, how about A1 drives to the basket, elevates and extends his over B1. B1 cannot elevate straight up and hit that arm in the act of shooting and have that not be called a foul. IMHO the principal of verticality protects the defender when the offensive player is responsible for the contact, but if the defender is responsible, you as a coach surely wants that call, and I believe you deserve it.

Rick,
The way the rule is worded, this is not a foul on B1. It's exactly what the rule is for.

[Hawks Coach]

You can no-call that as well. I am sure that if my player gets hit on the arm, I want a call (I am a coach!). However, reading the rules, I am not convinced that is justified. It does seem in the case that you outline that the defensive player is late and therefore responsible for the contact, but not by any rule you can cite.

In reality, if the arms are completely down, I doubt they will be raised and always remain within the vertical plane. So you may not have such a difficult moral dilemma

[Adam]

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
You can no-call that as well. I am sure that if my player gets hit on the arm, I want a call (I am a coach!). However, reading the rules, I am not convinced that is justified. It does seem in the case that you outline that the defensive player is late and therefore responsible for the contact, but not by any rule you can cite.

In reality, if the arms are completely down, I doubt they will be raised and always remain within the vertical plane. So you may not have such a difficult moral dilemma

Coach,
The more typical situation has B1 standing with his hands slightly above his shoulders and raising them; initiating contact with an offensive player violating his air space. The rule doesn't state that his arms have to be stationary, just like his feet don't have to be stationary to draw a pc foul. To me, it seems reasonable that some movement is allowed in conjunction with contact; movement up and down or side to side, so long as contact is never made outside of his vertical plane (cylinder, if you will).
To me, the point is where the contact is made. If the contact is outside the vertical, foul on B1. If the contact is within the vertical; no call or PC (rare.)