Another Counting Question

[rainmaker]

Had a question arise in a game yesterday, which, in light of the disagreement about the 5-second count, made me wonder if my partner was correct.

A1 dribbling in backcourt. With the count at about 8 seconds, B1 tips the ball away, grabs it with two hands, pushes it to the floor to begin a dribble. Before she touched it again, A2 tips it back to A1, who then dribbles back toward the endline before passing it up into the frontcourt. From in-bound to frontcourt, the whole sequence took about 17 seconds. Partner had started the count again after B1 grabbed it, and then lost it. I agreed with her analysis.

But perhaps we're wrong? How much possession is required for B1 to have before it is legal to start the count again if A steals it back?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by rainmaker
With the count at about 8 seconds, B1 tips the ball away, grabs it with two hands, pushes it to the floor to begin a dribble.

When B1 grabbed the ball with both hands, she established player control by holding the ball-Rule 4-12-1. From your description, there is no fumble or muff involved, but actual holding of the ball. That also establishes team control for Team B at the same time- Rule 4-12-2- and this also terminated CONTINUOUS contol by Team A in their backcourt- Rule 9-8. Therefore, the 10 second count for Team A was terminated because Team A lost player, team and continuous control at the same time that Team B gained it- Rule 4-12-3(b). The count won't start again for Team A until a player of that team once again establishes player contol, and thus team control, by holding or dribbling the ball once more.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 19th, 2004 at 12:37 PM]

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

When B1 grabbed the ball with both hands, she established player control by holding the ball-Rule 4-12-1. From your description, there is no fumble or muff involved, but actual holding of the ball. That also establishes team control for Team B at the same time- Rule 4-12-2- and this also terminated CONTINUOUS contol by Team A in their backcourt- Rule 9-8. Therefore, the 10 second count for Team A was terminated because Team A lost player, team and continuous control at the same time that Team B gained it- Rule 4-12-3(b).

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Jun 19th, 2004 at 12:34 PM]

Sounds good to me!

[TimTaylor]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Had a question arise in a game yesterday, which, in light of the disagreement about the 5-second count, made me wonder if my partner was correct.

A1 dribbling in backcourt. With the count at about 8 seconds, B1 tips the ball away, grabs it with two hands, pushes it to the floor to begin a dribble. Before she touched it again, A2 tips it back to A1, who then dribbles back toward the endline before passing it up into the frontcourt. From in-bound to frontcourt, the whole sequence took about 17 seconds. Partner had started the count again after B1 grabbed it, and then lost it. I agreed with her analysis.

But perhaps we're wrong? How much possession is required for B1 to have before it is legal to start the count again if A steals it back?

I also agree with your partner's call. When B1 grabbed the ball she established both player and team control, causing the count to terminate. A2's tip to A1 re-established team control for team A, and the count starts over then....

Last night I had something similar, but with a slightly different resolution. Team B is pressing hard, and at about 7 seconds into the count B1 tips the ball away from A1, but never gets possession. A1 almost immediately gets the ball back and continues dribbling another 3 or 4 seconds, at which point I blow the whistle & signal the violation. Coach A got a little excited, so I had to explain to him that since team B never got control of the ball, his team never lost team control & therefore the count continues........

[mick]

Originally posted by rainmaker
But perhaps we're wrong? How much possession is required for B1 to have before it is legal to start the count again if A steals it back?

Jewel,
You know this stuff.
Don't over analyze.
mick

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by mick

Jewel,
You know this stuff.
Don't over analyze.
mick

I thought I knew closely guarded, too...

[mick]

Originally posted by rainmaker

I thought I knew closely guarded, too...

You know that well enough, too.