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-   -   throw in (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/1408-throw.html)

mick Tue Jan 09, 2001 10:54pm
Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
Now how about this?

If it crosses the plane after the bounce, does it become a throw in violation because it is a loose ball, in play, and hit oob prior to inbounds? Certainly the defense can grab it.
Coach,
The bouncing pass becomes a violation:
Throw-in Violations
9.2.2A (a) : Thrower A attempts deception by: (a) causing the ball to carom from the wall..., or from the floor out of bounds and then into the court.

mick

BktBallRef Tue Jan 09, 2001 11:37pm
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
And, therefore, the boundary line is still out of bounds.
Nope. You're missing where the boundary is. The boundary line is where inbounds meets out of bounds. I'm not talking about a two inch stripe. The 2 inch, 3 inch, or 2 foot stripe around the playing floor is not the boundary line. Yes, this stripe is OOB. But the inner edge of the line, just as is defined in the rule above is the boundary line. If the ball bounces on the boundary line, it's bounced on the inbounds side as well as the out of bounds side. It's impossible for a ball to bounce on the line where these two areas meet and not hit inbounds.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 9th, 2001 at 08:57 PM]
Tony, :)
1-2-1: The playing court shall be marked with sidelines and end lines....The sidelines and end lines shall be a minimum of 2 inches in width.
4-9-1: Boundary lines of the court consist of end lines and sidelines.

Granted that the inbound/out-of-bound line has neither width, nor depth, but only length.

You may still bounce the ball on the boundary line, and be out of bounds, unless there is insufficient air in the ball and then it won't bounce so good.

mick
Okay mick, I'll re-phrase my post if it will make my meaning more clearly. But I find it difficult to believe that you can't understand what I'm saying. :(

If the thrower bounces the ball on the inside edge of the boundary line, the edge that separates inbounds and out of bounds, it is a violation. The ball cannot be bounce on this edge without touching inbounds.

mick Tue Jan 09, 2001 11:47pm
Yer right.
 
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
And, therefore, the boundary line is still out of bounds.
Nope. You're missing where the boundary is. The boundary line is where inbounds meets out of bounds. I'm not talking about a two inch stripe. The 2 inch, 3 inch, or 2 foot stripe around the playing floor is not the boundary line. Yes, this stripe is OOB. But the inner edge of the line, just as is defined in the rule above is the boundary line. If the ball bounces on the boundary line, it's bounced on the inbounds side as well as the out of bounds side. It's impossible for a ball to bounce on the line where these two areas meet and not hit inbounds.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 9th, 2001 at 08:57 PM]
Tony, :)
1-2-1: The playing court shall be marked with sidelines and end lines....The sidelines and end lines shall be a minimum of 2 inches in width.
4-9-1: Boundary lines of the court consist of end lines and sidelines.

Granted that the inbound/out-of-bound line has neither width, nor depth, but only length.

You may still bounce the ball on the boundary line, and be out of bounds, unless there is insufficient air in the ball and then it won't bounce so good.

mick
Okay mick, I'll re-phrase my post if it will make my meaning more clearly. But I find it difficult to believe that you can't understand what I'm saying. :(

If the thrower bounces the ball on the inside edge of the boundary line, the edge that separates inbounds and out of bounds, it is a violation. The ball cannot be bounce on this edge without touching inbounds.
Tony,
I don't understand how a ball can be in and out at the same time. But it is late.
mick

BktBallRef Tue Jan 09, 2001 11:56pm
Re: Yer right.
 
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Tony,
I don't understand how a ball can be in and out at the same time. But it is late.
mick

It can't be. It's either in or out.

For the sake of this discussion I will use the word "line" to refer to the <b>inside edge of the boundary that separates inbounds and OOB</b> in this paragraph. When A1 in bounds and step one the line, TWEET!, you're out of bounds. When thrower A1 out of bounds and step on the lline or bounce the ball on the line, TWEET!, you're inbounds.

Perhaps the confusion is that you're thinking of the two inch line. Yes, you can step on the two inch line and you're still OOB. But if you touch the inside edge, you're gonna touch inbounds.

mick Wed Jan 10, 2001 12:02am
Re: Re: Yer right.
 
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Tony,
I don't understand how a ball can be in and out at the same time. But it is late.
mick

It can't be. It's either in or out.

For the sake of this discussion I will use the word "line" to refer to the <b>inside edge of the boundary that separates inbounds and OOB</b> in this paragraph. When you're in bounds and step one the line, TWEET!, you're out of bounds. When you're out of bounds and step on the lline or bounce the ball on the line, you're inbounds.

Perhaps the confusion is that you're thinking of the two inch line. Yes, you can step on the two inch line and you're still OOB. But if you touch the inside edge, you're gonna touch inbounds.
Tony,
I know your are talking about the IB/OOB line.:)
If the ball is touching both sides it is OOB.
This isn't tennis or baseball.
mick

BktBallRef Wed Jan 10, 2001 12:40am
Re: Re: Re: Yer right.
 
Quote:
Originally posted by mick

Tony,
I know your are talking about the IB/OOB line.:)
If the ball is touching both sides it is OOB.
This isn't tennis or baseball.
mick
Are you saying that it's not possible for the ball that hits the inside edge of the boundary line and touch the floor both inbounds and OOB?

Let's try this another way!

Thrower A1 bounces the ball on the line, touching the floor out of bounds and inbounds at the same time.

a) The bounce is a dribble that A1 catches. This is a violation because the ball has touched inbounds and the thrower has touched it after it touched inbounds.

b) The bounce is a bounce pass that A2 catches. This is a violation because the inbounds pass hit out of bounds first.

Gotta love this stuff! :D

mick Wed Jan 10, 2001 07:14am
Re: Re: Re: Re: Yer right.
 
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by mick

Tony,
I know your are talking about the IB/OOB line.:)
If the ball is touching both sides it is OOB.
This isn't tennis or baseball.
mick
Are you saying that it's not possible for the ball that hits the inside edge of the boundary line and touch the floor both inbounds and OOB?

Let's try this another way!

Thrower A1 bounces the ball on the line, touching the floor out of bounds and inbounds at the same time.

a) The bounce is a dribble that A1 catches. This is a violation because the ball has touched inbounds and the thrower has touched it after it touched inbounds.

b) The bounce is a bounce pass that A2 catches. This is a violation because the inbounds pass hit out of bounds first.

Gotta love this stuff! :D
:)
Tony,
a) 7.2.b The ball is out of bounds when it touches: b. any other person, the floor or any object on or outside a boundary.
b) agreed.
mick

Indy_Ref Wed Jan 10, 2001 08:40am
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
You may still bounce the ball on the boundary line, and be out of bounds, unless there is insufficient air in the ball and then it won't bounce so good.
mick
[/B]
Mick, would you agree that if a player bounces the ball on the boundary line, and for arguments sake none of the ball actually HITS the inbounds area, the ball can still break (hang over) the inbounds plane? And at that point, if B decides to touch/grab the ball, would you give a T to B if A still has possession? Furthermore, would you give team B a boundary plane infraction warning if B grabs the ball?

mick Wed Jan 10, 2001 09:58am
Quote:
Originally posted by Indy_Ref

Mick, would you agree that if a player bounces the ball on the boundary line, and for arguments sake none of the ball actually HITS the inbounds area, the ball can still break (hang over) the inbounds plane? And at that point, if B decides to touch/grab the ball, would you give a T to B if A still has possession? Furthermore, would you give team B a boundary plane infraction warning if B grabs the ball?
Casey,
If the B touches the ball without breaking the plane and before it is released, we know that is legal touching.
If B's hands break the plane, before the ball is released, it is illegal and a warning is given the first time.
If A releases the ball on the OOB dribble, I think B still cannot grab the ball, because B can only grab the ball if the ball is released on an inbound pass. (9-2-11) A dribble is not an inbound pass, in my mind.
A dribble that strikes the OOB and then goes inbounds to B would have to have some kind of top spin on it wouldn't it?
In that case, I would probably consider the dribble as an illegal throw-in and give the ball to B for a throw-in. (Case 9.2.2A (a))
I do not want any of this to happen in my game.
mick

Indy_Ref Wed Jan 10, 2001 10:05am
[QUOTE]Originally posted by mick
Casey,
If the B touches the ball without breaking the plane and before it is released, we know that is legal touching.

Agreed!

If B's hands break the plane, before the ball is released, it is illegal and a warning is given the first time.

Agreed (assuming that B doesn't touch the ball, otherwise T), but it can be very hard to determine because of our angle in regards to the thrower in and the defender.

If A releases the ball on the OOB dribble, I think B still cannot grab the ball, because B can only grab the ball if the ball is released on an inbound pass. (9-2-11) A dribble is not an inbound pass, in my mind.

Agreed!

A dribble that strikes the OOB and then goes inbounds to B would have to have some kind of top spin on it wouldn't it?

What if the ball was accidentally throw down at a slight angle? Although, I would 99.9% agree!

In that case, I would probably consider the dribble as an illegal throw-in and give the ball to B for a throw-in.(Case 9.2.2A (a))

Agreed!

I do not want any of this to happen in my game.

ABSOLUTELY, AGREE!!

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Jan 10th, 2001 at 09:39 AM]

BktBallRef Wed Jan 10, 2001 10:06am
Somebody once sang, "It's only you and me and we just disagree!"
 
Quote:
Originally posted by mick

Tony,
a) 7.2.b The ball is out of bounds when it touches: b. any other person, the floor or any object on or outside a boundary.
b) agreed.
mick
So, if the thrower steps on the line with part of his foot inbounds and part of his foot OOB, he is still OOB and hasn't violated?

mick Wed Jan 10, 2001 10:18am
And a fine song 'twas.
 
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by mick

Tony,
a) 7.2.b The ball is out of bounds when it touches: b. any other person, the floor or any object on or outside a boundary.
b) agreed.
mick
So, if the thrower steps on the line with part of his foot inbounds and part of his foot OOB, he is still OOB and hasn't violated?
:)
Tony,
Nope can't do that by 9.2.5 Play ;)
mick

BktBallRef Wed Jan 10, 2001 10:36am
Re: And a fine song 'twas.
 
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by mick

Tony,
a) 7.2.b The ball is out of bounds when it touches: b. any other person, the floor or any object on or outside a boundary.
b) agreed.
mick
So, if the thrower steps on the line with part of his foot inbounds and part of his foot OOB, he is still OOB and hasn't violated?
:)
Tony,
Nope can't do that by 9.2.5 Play ;)
mick
Well, if he can't do that, then he can't dribble the ball on the line either. There's no difference in stepping on the line and bouncing the ball on it.

mick Wed Jan 10, 2001 10:50am
Our next game
 
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by mick
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Quote:
Originally posted by mick

Tony,
a) 7.2.b The ball is out of bounds when it touches: b. any other person, the floor or any object on or outside a boundary.
b) agreed.
mick
So, if the thrower steps on the line with part of his foot inbounds and part of his foot OOB, he is still OOB and hasn't violated?
:)
Tony,
Nope can't do that by 9.2.5 Play ;)
mick
Well, if he can't do that, then he can't dribble the ball on the line either. There's no difference in stepping on the line and bouncing the ball on it.
:)
Tony,

The ball may be dribbled OOB. A Ball on the Boundary is OOB.

When we next work together, I'm not gonna call your line, anyway. And you won't be calling mine. No praw. ;)
mick

BktBallRef Wed Jan 10, 2001 11:00am
I give up on you, mick. If you could explain why a thrower can't step on the line but can dribble the ball on the line, I would love to hear it.


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