Flagrant T ????
 

for a 8 grader saying "sh*&" that is only heard by the referee is a flagrant foul regardless of the situation ??? I think that is a little extreme . Who defines what is and what is not profanity ? Does "damn" count as a profanity ?You are walking a very fine line with that policy . I can understand if it was directed at an official or if it was screamed at the top of the kids lungs . I think a warning to the player first then a "T" for any future offenses would be more in line (Yes even at the 3-8 grade level). I understand the desire to teach the kids the "proper" way to do things but IMO you guys are coming on a little too strong .
If you are running by some parents who are talking to each other about what they did last night and you hear one of them say " I didn't do sh*& last night" . Do you run him out of the gym ? I realize I am exagerating a little bit and I am sure that you mean any parent that yells out something that cannot be said on an after shcool special on TV .

Re: Flagrant T ????
 

The league defines what "profanity" is. If they wanna say "damn" is a profanity, then that's the way it is. That's the league's right. Iow, the league can give direction to their officials as to how strictly they want a certain rule called. Since the officials are basically employees of that league,unless it is a safety issue, the officials haveta follow the direction of the people hiring them. No different than the Big 10, SEC, etc. It doesn't really matter whether we agree with that particular league's philosophy or not. We just do it. Or we don't work that particular league.

JR ,
You are absolutely correct in stating that the league can make up it's own rules and direct the officials to abide by them...just like some leagues have a no press rule when up by a certain amount of points .
Does this league publish a letter with the 7 dirty words you can't say on TV (Or in this cases the court)....I highly doubt it . Which brings me to the crux of my statement....where do you draw the line with profanity ? This is why a WARNING needs to be issued before following through with a Flagrant T !!

Which leads right back to the crux of my statement, WR. We, as officials, DON'T draw a line with profanity. The line has already been drawn for us by our employers. If they say that we are NOT supposed to issue a warning, then we CAN'T issue a warning. Basically, it's a "term of employment" that we MUST issue flagrant T's without warning for what the league defines as profanity.

Dead on J.R. !
WR we are down to maybe 4 words that cant be said on t.v. now. If it wasnt for Janet it may be down to 2!
Why would you personaly put up with such talk? Do you have children? Would you put up with it at home? Not me.

Whoa, whoa, whoa whoa!

Don't misconstrue what I'm saying. Anti-swearing isn't necessarily my crusade. Personally, and probably unfortunately, I have a tendency myself to use profanity a little too much sometimes. Not around women and children though. I watch that pretty closely. The anti-profanity crusade is that particular league's crusade. What I'm saying is that it is not up to us as officials as to whether we agree or don't agree with their crusade while we are working in their league. We just follow their direction, is all. If the league direction is zero tolerance on any profanity, then that's the way it is.

I totally agree with this. A lot of what I do and what I think is directly to the league or assignor says. If there is not a common policy, I go to my personal berometer and do what I feel is best. But I never tolerate profanity, I just do not penalize it with a T just because it is used. Usually a good "talk to" will do the trick. But every situation is different and every place is different.

Peace

And, Jeff, that's what works for you and your league, so that's good.

Weekend Ref -- It's just a matter of teamwork with all the refs in your area. That teamwork happens over a longer period of time than just one game. It takes some effort and attention to make it work. But it's the only "fair" way to handle it. Everyone needs to defer to "prevailing community standards."

Easy big fella...
 

TPS2859 ,
If you are asking me if I would put up with a player cursing softly to himself after he misses a layup then my answer is an emphatic yes .
I do have a child and if he cursed when he stubbed his toe I would laugh at him and then ask him to watch his language I would not "t" him up immediately and send him to his room . If he called his mother a nasty name then I would take him out behind the woodshed . He's only 4 months so I don't have to worry about it for a while .
I just want to know from whomever posted the email about this league (I think it was Mark Padgett) is how did they determine what is and what is not profanity for an 8th grader. As I said I am sure they did not publish a list of words that cannot be used so I am assuming that it is left up to the ref as to what words will earn them a T .
I was also curious about the spectators . If you are truly using a zero tolerance policy and you overhear them talking and one of them uses profanity are you forced to run them.

WR,
I think what most and even myself are saying, you have to judge every incident differently. I personaly have never given a T for a word that came from a player directed at himself for a missed shot that was heard ONLY by those very close to him. BUT, if it is shouted and the whole gym can hear it, then he's bought a T.

As far as crusades go I can put a sailor to shame while in my glory, but never to disrespect anyone. You need to weigh the intent of how the player used the word and why.

TPS
What W was responding to was a zero tolerance policy that some espoused. I think he agrees with your approach. Padgett's is zero tolerance at 8th and below, MTD's is zero tolerance period. Not the same as what you described.

Sorry, I had my last one graduate from high school and I think I've killed a few to many cells this weekend.

Tough call on the zero tolerance! I guess I too would have to judge the situation as it played out.