Had to whack a kid this weekend for swearing all the way up the court about a no-call. A few minutes later, some swearing happens between the players (I didn't hear it). Teammate to the kid I whacked asked why I didn't call a T on the kid for swearing. Told him I didn't hear it, it wasn't directed at me (or my partner), and wasn't aware of a rule for technical foul for swearing.

Is there a rule for no swearing between players? By this I mean the kids are not swearing about a no-call, or a perceived bad call. But, one kid swearing at another (i.e. shut the f*!? up). Does this fall under unsportsmanlike conduct?

You can T anybody for profanity, but it really depends on where you are reffing. I eagerly await jrut's response on this, he always states it better than I could. Jrut is fairly permissive in his approach, MTD has a zero tolerance approach. MTD's is supportable by NF rules, but Jrut's recognizes the standard of behavior in the area he refs.

If you are going to ignore profanity, the first stuff that usually goes ignored is the player swearing at himself and it isn't yelled out for the whole gym to hear (e.g., an f bomb for missing a lay-up or fumbling a ball out of bounds). The same f-bomb directed at another player is another level up and may result in a T, or may be ignored if it doesn't seem to be any more antagonistic than other trash talk that is occurring - again, depends on what is tolerated in your area. F-bomb directed at an official is usually an automatic.

So rule supports a T for any profanity, but you need to know what is accepteable in your area. And what you "don't hear" never gets T'd.

no need to wait
 

Coach,
No need to wait for Jrut to get here with his explanation, you have done a great job of combining all of the opinions in one neat little package...well said...I personally lie somewhere in the middle probably more towards Jrut's style of handling this situation...

See "Player Technical" - Rule 10-3:

1) Rule10-3-7(b)- "Commit an unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts of conduct such as using profane or inappropriate languge or obscene gestures".

2) Rule 10-3-7(c)- "Commit an un unsporting foul. This includes, but is not limited to, acts of conduct such as baiting or taunting an opponent".

You weren't aware of these rules?

If you swear at me, you'll be watching the remainder of the game from the bench, or from the lockerroom.

I'm learning. I don't have the rules down cold yet. That's why I've been sticking to the house/AAU stuff. There's a lot of information in the rules/case books. Some of us just pick it up quicker than others.

Any area that accepts profanity from juveniles is not worthy of having me officiate in its area.

I know that sounds arrogant, and I will defend to the death any person's right to free speech, but profanity is not acceptable in an athletic event, especially when the participants are below the age of eighteen.

I will never be considered a member of the Moral Majority, but a society that accecpts profanity as a normal part of communication during an athletic event, is headed downhill fast.

I do agree that what you cannot hear you cannot penalize.

Sh1t yeah.

Any area that accepts profanity from juveniles is not worthy of having me officiate in its area.

[/B][/QUOTE]Headlines in many Ohio newspapers this week- <i> Swearing breaks out in numerous area basketball games. Coaches all quoted as saying "Not to worry. Some good will come out of this."</i> :D

Headlines in many Ohio newspapers this week- <i> Swearing breaks out in numerous area basketball games. Coaches all quoted as saying "Not to worry. Some good will come out of this."</i> :D [/B][/QUOTE]

So the coaches where building a cone of DeNuccibility.

So the coaches where building a cone of DeNuccibility. [/B][/QUOTE]First you get 213 rolls of toilet paper......


LOL!:D

What the dexter are those kids doing swearing anyway? Dexterheads...T their a$$es and set them down on the dextering bench...

First you get <U>213</U> rolls of toilet paper......
[/QUOTE]

288

In our local rec league, in games involving grades 3-8, any profanity heard by the referee regardless of the circumstance is an automatic flagrant technical. If it is by a coach, that coach is automatically suspended and must appeal to the Board for reinstatement. If by a spectator, that person cannot attend practices or games for the rest of the season.

We are slightly more lenient at the HS rec level. For instance, if a player misses a wide open layup and mutters something under his breath, he gets a warning - but if it can be heard by spectators, it's a T. Any profanity directed at an official by anyone at this level is automatically a flagrant T and an indefinite suspension.

Ours is not the only rec league in this area with rules of this kind. We are on a crusade to eliminate poor sportsmanship and we are starting with profanity.

Taunting is next.

You would not be the last.
 

Hawk,

I am not suggesting that you are wrong totally. But I would not say I am premisable about profanity. I just feel that there has to be a context for everything. In my opinion, you should not penalize HS aged kids for profanity that is amongs themselves and no one really hears. I also feel that if it is not directed at an official or an opponent, you can make a point directly or indirectly to prevent further actions. I usually use dead ball situations and often times FTs to make a point. Usually after a FT, everyone heard my comments and they begin to correct themselves on their own.

Peace

Flagrant T ????
 

for a 8 grader saying "sh*&" that is only heard by the referee is a flagrant foul regardless of the situation ??? I think that is a little extreme . Who defines what is and what is not profanity ? Does "damn" count as a profanity ?You are walking a very fine line with that policy . I can understand if it was directed at an official or if it was screamed at the top of the kids lungs . I think a warning to the player first then a "T" for any future offenses would be more in line (Yes even at the 3-8 grade level). I understand the desire to teach the kids the "proper" way to do things but IMO you guys are coming on a little too strong .
If you are running by some parents who are talking to each other about what they did last night and you hear one of them say " I didn't do sh*& last night" . Do you run him out of the gym ? I realize I am exagerating a little bit and I am sure that you mean any parent that yells out something that cannot be said on an after shcool special on TV .

Re: Flagrant T ????
 

The league defines what "profanity" is. If they wanna say "damn" is a profanity, then that's the way it is. That's the league's right. Iow, the league can give direction to their officials as to how strictly they want a certain rule called. Since the officials are basically employees of that league,unless it is a safety issue, the officials haveta follow the direction of the people hiring them. No different than the Big 10, SEC, etc. It doesn't really matter whether we agree with that particular league's philosophy or not. We just do it. Or we don't work that particular league.

JR ,
You are absolutely correct in stating that the league can make up it's own rules and direct the officials to abide by them...just like some leagues have a no press rule when up by a certain amount of points .
Does this league publish a letter with the 7 dirty words you can't say on TV (Or in this cases the court)....I highly doubt it . Which brings me to the crux of my statement....where do you draw the line with profanity ? This is why a WARNING needs to be issued before following through with a Flagrant T !!

Which leads right back to the crux of my statement, WR. We, as officials, DON'T draw a line with profanity. The line has already been drawn for us by our employers. If they say that we are NOT supposed to issue a warning, then we CAN'T issue a warning. Basically, it's a "term of employment" that we MUST issue flagrant T's without warning for what the league defines as profanity.

Dead on J.R. !
WR we are down to maybe 4 words that cant be said on t.v. now. If it wasnt for Janet it may be down to 2!
Why would you personaly put up with such talk? Do you have children? Would you put up with it at home? Not me.

Whoa, whoa, whoa whoa!

Don't misconstrue what I'm saying. Anti-swearing isn't necessarily my crusade. Personally, and probably unfortunately, I have a tendency myself to use profanity a little too much sometimes. Not around women and children though. I watch that pretty closely. The anti-profanity crusade is that particular league's crusade. What I'm saying is that it is not up to us as officials as to whether we agree or don't agree with their crusade while we are working in their league. We just follow their direction, is all. If the league direction is zero tolerance on any profanity, then that's the way it is.

I totally agree with this. A lot of what I do and what I think is directly to the league or assignor says. If there is not a common policy, I go to my personal berometer and do what I feel is best. But I never tolerate profanity, I just do not penalize it with a T just because it is used. Usually a good "talk to" will do the trick. But every situation is different and every place is different.

Peace

And, Jeff, that's what works for you and your league, so that's good.

Weekend Ref -- It's just a matter of teamwork with all the refs in your area. That teamwork happens over a longer period of time than just one game. It takes some effort and attention to make it work. But it's the only "fair" way to handle it. Everyone needs to defer to "prevailing community standards."

Easy big fella...
 

TPS2859 ,
If you are asking me if I would put up with a player cursing softly to himself after he misses a layup then my answer is an emphatic yes .
I do have a child and if he cursed when he stubbed his toe I would laugh at him and then ask him to watch his language I would not "t" him up immediately and send him to his room . If he called his mother a nasty name then I would take him out behind the woodshed . He's only 4 months so I don't have to worry about it for a while .
I just want to know from whomever posted the email about this league (I think it was Mark Padgett) is how did they determine what is and what is not profanity for an 8th grader. As I said I am sure they did not publish a list of words that cannot be used so I am assuming that it is left up to the ref as to what words will earn them a T .
I was also curious about the spectators . If you are truly using a zero tolerance policy and you overhear them talking and one of them uses profanity are you forced to run them.

WR,
I think what most and even myself are saying, you have to judge every incident differently. I personaly have never given a T for a word that came from a player directed at himself for a missed shot that was heard ONLY by those very close to him. BUT, if it is shouted and the whole gym can hear it, then he's bought a T.

As far as crusades go I can put a sailor to shame while in my glory, but never to disrespect anyone. You need to weigh the intent of how the player used the word and why.

TPS
What W was responding to was a zero tolerance policy that some espoused. I think he agrees with your approach. Padgett's is zero tolerance at 8th and below, MTD's is zero tolerance period. Not the same as what you described.

Sorry, I had my last one graduate from high school and I think I've killed a few to many cells this weekend.

Tough call on the zero tolerance! I guess I too would have to judge the situation as it played out.