What would you do?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Maybe he had a wide angle? Maybe he was able to see both?

I think what Mick said rings so true. If the lead is waving off the play, he probably already realizes what is happening and made a decision. Not much you can tell him at that point. Of course this is a pregame issue, but I will assume if I was his partner that the play was dead before the shot was taken.

Peace

I guess it's just the way we each visualize this play, but under mens 3 man if the ball is L side in the corner that is the T's responsibility. That goes double if the L is reffing a matchup in the post, which he did because he blew the whistle.

I understand the womens side has the L work much wider, but still I don't see how the L could have both the foul & the shot. I suppose it could happen, but it seems both the T & C would have a much better view.

In any even, as I said if it is OBVIOUS then someone has got to step up & fix it.

If it's close then let the L deal with it.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dan_ref


Well...if you're working with the type of guy who flat refuses to accept your information then you're screwed.

I disagree. He made a decision. I cannot question all his decision just because I might think I have a different opinion.

Originally posted by Dan_ref
If it was close then you let him live with it.

If it is close, of course I am going to let him live with it. I can, why do you have such a problem with that.

Originally posted by Dan_ref
If it was OBVIOUS then you got to step up and make it right.

Sometimes what is "obvious" is subjective. He made the call and determined that the basket should not count. Now I was not there. I did not see the play, so at best we are just speculating at this point. But at the very least, he made a call. It would be in my mind no different than disagreeing with my partner about a foul that was called. It might be a terrible call, but it is not my job to change terrible calls. It is my job to support my partner and if he messed up, he will have to answer to folks other than me. If I really disagree with the call, we will talk about it after the game.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by mick


When building a house, which is more important, the hammer or the nail?

The guy that's hammering the nails?

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Sometimes what is "obvious" is subjective.

To hammer in this nail let's consider the following case:

A1 shoots a 3 from the corner, as it is coming down L has a foul on B2 in the low post. He waves off the basket. Or maybe make it more fun: as the ball is coming down the T whistles a BI on B3, then the L whisltes the foul on B2 in the post. He waves off the basket.

Obvious? Or subjective?

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dan_ref


I guess it's just the way we each visualize this play, but under mens 3 man if the ball is L side in the corner that is the T's responsibility. That goes double if the L is reffing a matchup in the post, which he did because he blew the whistle.

I understand the womens side has the L work much wider, but still I don't see how the L could have both the foul & the shot. I suppose it could happen, but it seems both the T & C would have a much better view.

Well Tommy O'Neil (D1 Men's Official, works in the Big Ten and Big 12 and Mountain West) when I attended his camp last summer, told me that as the Lead, you still have to be aware of what goes on right outside of your area on the perimeter. When the ball is out there, he suggested that you still get an angle to see or be aware of what is going on with the ball in the corner.

Originally posted by Dan_ref
In any even, as I said if it is OBVIOUS then someone has got to step up & fix it.

If it's close then let the L deal with it.

Again, we are splitting hairs. Because what is obvious to one officical, might be not so obvious to another. We do not have both sides of the story, just one official telling us what he thinks he saw. It is still the calling official's decision to make, all the other officials can do is give information. He might decide to reject the "help" and do what he feel he called. But he also stated that the calling official immediately waved off the basket. I have to at least trust my partner that he knew what he was doing. Now if he does nothing, then maybe I have to have a talk. But not when he is that adamant about it.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dan_ref


Obvious? Or subjective?

No, what is obvious to one person, maybe not so clear to another.

If I am standing right there, I probably see all the movements, the reactions and the behaviors.

If I am standing 20 feet away, I see the end result. So depending on your angle, how much you see and what would be considered "obvious," can be very subjective.

The calling official knew in his mind when the play was dead. The whisle only tells everyone what he has. It does not tell the entire story.

Peace

[Jimgolf]

This may show how ignorant I am of three person mechanics, but why wouldn't an off-ball foul simultaneously with a made shot automatically result in a conference before the basket is allowed or waved off? Does this take too much time or look too indecisive? I thought the whole point of three-man was to have six eyes on the play. Why not use all of them whenever you have more than one situation on a particular play?

[Edited by Jimgolf on May 26th, 2004 at 12:26 PM]

[mick]

Originally posted by JRutledge
I have to at least trust my partner that he knew what he was doing. Now if he does nothing, then maybe I have to have a talk. But not when he is that adamant about it.

Rut,
If I wave 'er off, but you think the shot was in motion, I want you to come down and give me that information.
That way I get to trust my partner, too.

We all know it is about communicating.
mick

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge

No, what is obvious to one person, maybe not so clear to another.

If I am standing right there, I probably see all the movements, the reactions and the behaviors.

If I am standing 20 feet away, I see the end result. So depending on your angle, how much you see and what would be considered "obvious," can be very subjective.

The calling official knew in his mind when the play was dead. The whisle only tells everyone what he has. It does not tell the entire story.

Peace

C'mon Jeff, now you aint being serious.

In my plays it was OBVIOUS TO EVERYONE IN THE BUILDING EXCEPT THE L the shot was off before the whistle. He plain & simple got it wrong.

At this point let's just agree to disagree.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by mick


Rut,
If I wave 'er off, but you think the shot was in motion, I want you to come down and give me that information.
That way I get to trust my partner, too.

We all know it is about communicating.
mick

I do not disagree with that, but your "waving" tells me a lot about what you think you just called. If you did not feel so strong about it, then you would not have "waved" off the basket.

But there is the thang. We would have discussed that to some extent in the pregame or at halftime. If you want to come me to tell you something in those cases. But when the basket goes in and you do not say anything, all I am going to do in that situation is just tell you, "the ball went in." It is up to you to decide if it counts or not.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

If I'm calling an off-ball foul in the post, I often check the status of the ball before I whistle. It's part of the advantage/disadvantage. The location the ball sometimes affects the advantage. Plus, I'm not likely call a marginal defensive foul if the offense it getting the shot they want away from the foul. Of course, I'll certainly call it if it is more than marginal no matter the status of the ball.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dan_ref


C'mon Jeff, now you aint being serious.

In my plays it was OBVIOUS TO EVERYONE IN THE BUILDING EXCEPT THE L the shot was off before the whistle. He plain & simple got it wrong.

At this point let's just agree to disagree.

I am very serious. They get paid the same as I do. They got the game the same way I recieved the game. It is not my job to make calls or decisions for my partners. If they have made a decision, they have to live with it. Because if I do exactly what you suggest, how many other calls is the coach going to start asking me about? I have no problem with how you choose to handle it. But if it is me, I am not saying anything.

Getting it right is not the most important "thang" when an official has made a complete judgment call. I am sorry, but we are just going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Peace

[Ref in PA]

As T, I would run down and tell the L what I saw and then allow the L to count the bucket or remain with the original call. I would then support whatever the L calls at that point.

I just hope that if I am the lead that I do not wave off the shot as part of my mechanics in calling the initial foul and if I do, have the ability to make the correct call once I am in possession of all the information.

I say this because there could have been some lag time (hopefully not much) between the foul and my whistle, where the T is seeing the shot and hearing my whistle.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Jimgolf


This may show how ignorant I am of three person mechanics, but why wouldn't an off-ball foul simultaneously with a made shot automatically result in a conference before the basket is allowed or waved off?

First, you should not have a conference unless all you are trying to figure out is how we are going to administer a Technical Foul or how to apply a very specific rule (substitutions, warnings).

Originally posted by Jimgolf
Does this take too much time or look too indecisive? I thought the whole point of three-man was to have six eyes on the play. Why not use all of them whenever you have more than one situation on a particular play?

The idea of 3 Person is to watch specific areas of the court. You should almost never have all officials looking at the same play. If you do, you are going to miss screens and off ball stuff or secondary defenders.

But the bottom line here, the official made a ruling. It is not your job to question his/her rulings on judgment calls. That does not matter if that is 2 Person or 3 Person.

Peace

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
If I'm calling an off-ball foul in the post, I often check the status of the ball before I whistle. It's part of the advantage/disadvantage. The location the ball sometimes affects the advantage. Plus, I'm not likely call a marginal defensive foul if the offense it getting the shot they want away from the foul. Of course, I'll certainly call it if it is more than marginal no matter the status of the ball.

Camron,

This is exactly what I do. I do not blow the whisle without some idea what has happen with the ball (or at the very least I try not to). And if for some reason I am unclear as to what happen, I ask myself. But if I have waved off the basket, I have long made a decision as to what happen. Maybe my whistle was a little slow, but I sure decided for some reason I was not counting the basket.

Peace