AAU Ramblings and a Play

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by rainmaker
I did get that. My point was, why point out that the shot clock is re-set on a violation? Of course it is, since the ball is turned over. The kick and the deflection oob are the only defensive violations. The kick resets the shot clock, the tip doesn't.

I don't have my books here (and I'm too lazy to look them up on line), but suppose that provision wasn't there ...

Now the rule reads (something like) "The shot clock shall be reset when the other team gets control."

Before the last couple of years, when did the Team B get *control* after an offensive (Team A) violation? After the throw-in (in a general sense). What if Team A intercepted the throw-in? Should the shot-clock be reset? Not without the "reset upon a violation" wording.

Yes, it could be clearer. But, I think that's why it's there.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

My point was, why point out that the shot clock is re-set on a violation?

Maybe to define when the clock is reset ie on the violation and not the subsequent throw in?

:shrug:

I wouldn't get too bogged down in this for now. Just understand how the clock is to be handled.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
(ncaa kick not the same as a NF kick btw)

Better look again, scooter.

[rainmaker]

Bob -- Your point makes sense to me. Thanks.

Thanks for this discussion. I can see I've got some studying ahead of me.

Originally posted by Dan_ref
The CCA manual has many (24 or 28?) shot clock scenarios with proper ruling.

I'm still on pages 16-20. Where the heck to stand when, and switching. Ugh! Reporting is different! Rotation! Wide eyes! I know it's all very good for me, but my head is spinning. I'll work on shot clock in August, with March Madness tapes.

[Edited by rainmaker on May 17th, 2004 at 11:42 AM]

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Better look again, scooter.

Got me...

...and that's MR Scooter to you!

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Dan_ref

Got me...

...and that's MR Scooter to you!

Explain please for us peons! No, I get the part about Mr. Scooter. I want to know more about the kick.

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Explain please for us peons! No, I get the part about Mr. Scooter. I want to know more about the kick.

http://basketball.officiating.com/x/article/3763

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Dan_ref
[B]

http://basketball.officiating.com/x/article/3763

Of course. Silly me...

[theboys]

Purely from a statistician's standpoint, I wouldn't call the situation a change of possession. Under the circumstances, I wouldn't give the defensive player a steal and a turnover because it doesn't seem like "control" applies. Nor would I give the offensive player a turnover.

[mick]

Originally posted by theboys
Purely from a statistician's standpoint, I wouldn't call the situation a change of possession. Under the circumstances, I wouldn't give the defensive player a steal and a turnover because it doesn't seem like "control" applies. Nor would I give the offensive player a turnover.

You do not think the defender was "holding, or dribbling"?
mick

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by theboys
Purely from a statistician's standpoint, I wouldn't call the situation a change of possession. Under the circumstances, I wouldn't give the defensive player a steal and a turnover because it doesn't seem like "control" applies. Nor would I give the offensive player a turnover.

Does that mean that if a defensive player steals the ball, and then subsequently double-dribbles, travels,etc., you also wouldn't credit that defensive player with a steal and a turnover either? You've got exactly the same thing in both situations-i.e. A steal, followed by player and team control(by rule), followed by a violation.

The rules definition of player control is "holding or dribbling the ball". That fits all the situations above.

[Adam]

theboys,

I agree with the others, I don't see how you can avoid calling it a steal/turnover. It's not as if the play is unaffected, since A gets a new shotclock. B1 worked to get the steal, give it to her. Now, she neglects to pass it before landing OOB, give her the turnover.
Would you give it to her if her first foot landed in bounds and her second foot landed OOB? What about both feet in and then dribbles OOB? It seems to me the logical and reasonable definition should be whether she establishes player control. She did.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by theboys
Purely from a statistician's standpoint, I wouldn't call the situation a change of possession. Under the circumstances, I wouldn't give the defensive player a steal and a turnover because it doesn't seem like "control" applies. Nor would I give the offensive player a turnover.

This is why there's no consistency in statistics at lower levels of play.

Under statistical rules, this is a turnover for A, and a steal and turnover for B. B1 had player control of the ball. It can't be ignored.

[Rickref]

I saw a play along similar lines. High school rules, the opening tip is going out of bounds before either team can gain control. Player for Team A grabs the ball while airborne before he lands OOB he saves it to Player B. In this case the AP arrow was set to Team B. I believe that would be correct.

[Adam]

Looks right to me, Rick. Same concept.