Under the Front

[mick]

This has always been a tough call for me.

F (front) is in front of B (back).
F and B are in the paint.
A shot goes up and rebounds toward F and B.
B jumps first, and high, and grabs the ball, while legally reaching over F's back, head and shoulders.
F jumps late, but very vertically, and reaches the ball after B, whose outstretched hands, over F, still have the ball.
There is contact on B's arms as F reaches for the ball.
The contact causes the ball to be released, indicating that there was sufficient contact.

The safe call is a no call.
What is the proper call?

mick

[BktBallRef]

If F and B are on the same team, then a no call is the proper call.

If F and B are on the same team and both names are not in the score book, I have ONE technical foul!

If F and B are on different teams, then I have a foul on F.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 3rd, 2001 at 10:12 PM]

[Mark Dexter]

I have a foul on B, if any foul at all.

4-44-4 states that the defender shall not be penalized for having "arms extended within his/her vertical plane."

Once B reaches out, he violates F's 'airspace,' and a foul is his responsibility.

[BigDave]

I've got a foul on F. If B legally rebounded the ball, then F's actions (contact) caused the ball to come loose, easy call. Common foul on F.

The only other option is a no call. B did nothing to warrant a foul.

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I have a foul on B, if any foul at all.

4-44-4 states that the defender shall not be penalized for having "arms extended within his/her vertical plane."

Once B reaches out, he violates F's 'airspace,' and a foul is his responsibility.

Right -- but F isn't being penalized for having the arms extended, F is being penalized for extendinghis arms.

F initiated the contact. If it's a foul, it's a foul on F.

[Indy_Ref]

I'll most likely have a "no call" if the contact can pass as incidental. If it can't, I'll call the foul on F. How can you penalize B for LEGALLY getting to the rebound first? In my opinion, you can't and shouldn't!

Now, coach F & the F fans are going to think you are whacked out, BUT, in my opinion, you've made the correct call.

[Brian Watson]

B is violating F's vertical space, just because F was not there to start with doesn't mean that he still isn't entitled to it. If I make the call it is on B.


Now if you called a foul on F, it is because he jumped backwards right? Violating B's space.

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by Brian Watson
B is violating F's vertical space, just because F was not there to start with doesn't mean that he still isn't entitled to it. If I make the call it is on B.

Interesting, Brian. You're going to call a foul on B when B grabs the ball out of the air, doesn't make ANY contact with F; AND THEN, F jumps up, initiates contact with B, and knocks the ball out of B's hands by making this contact on B's arms????

I just can't see it. I'm sticking to my call! Of course, it's only my opinion, too.

[Brian Watson]

This might be one of those things that you just need to see. Looking at it on paper, I feel that if B was not in F's space there would be no contact. So should I penalize F for exercising his right to his veritical space? On paper I say no, but seeing it full speed in real life, I might have a different opinion.

[Edited by Brian Watson on Jan 4th, 2001 at 09:04 AM]

[Hawks Coach]

I think that any time you jump and reach over someone to get the ball, you risk being responsible for any contact that occurs. If it is insufficient to call a foul, or if no contact ends up occurring, B is in the clear. But if contact occurs, I think that B is responsible. I don't be;lieve that F initiated the contact merely because F jumped after B. I have a hard time with the concept that B obtains the right to space directly above F by jumping first. I can only see a no call or a foul on B.

[mcdanrd]

Other than maybe "HEY REF, 3 Seconds, can't you count?" the "Hey, Over the back" is my most commonly heard complaint. As a coach, are you willing to accept a no call on this one? No call is my first inclination.

[mick]

Originally posted by BktBallRef
If F and B are on the same team, then a no call is the proper call.

If F and B are on the same team and both names are not in the score book, I have ONE technical foul!

If F and B are on different teams, then I have a foul on F.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Jan 3rd, 2001 at 10:12 PM]

Tony,
You are a Turkey!
mick

[Richard Ogg]

Foul on B (who casued the contact by violating F's space).

[Hawks Coach]

Originally posted by mcdanrd
Other than maybe "HEY REF, 3 Seconds, can't you count?" the "Hey, Over the back" is my most commonly heard complaint. As a coach, are you willing to accept a no call on this one? No call is my first inclination.

I can accept no call. If B can jump over A and either avoid contact or have contact that does not warrant a foul, that's just good aggressive bball. But if you think you have a foul, I feel that it has to be on B. It seems bizarre to call a foul on F for going straight up for a rebound and running into someone who tried to jump over them. Sorry B, you almost made a great play.

BTW, you won't hear me call for an over the back after all of the discussion on this board. I may ask nicely for a push, though

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by mcdanrd
Other than maybe "HEY REF, 3 Seconds, can't you count?" the "Hey, Over the back" is my most commonly heard complaint. As a coach, are you willing to accept a no call on this one? No call is my first inclination.

If you no call it, you're effectively saying that B is at fault but you're passing on it. Otherwise, you have to call the foul on F since the contact caused B to lose the ball.

Originally posted by mick
Originally posted by BktBallRef
If F and B are on the same team, then a no call is the proper call.

If F and B are on the same team and both names are not in the score book, I have ONE technical foul!

If F and B are on different teams, then I have a foul on F.


Tony,
You are a Turkey!
mick

Gobble, gobble!