Crew loyalty v. fairness to coaches (kinda long)

[stripes]

Ray, what I want to know is who the teams and officials were. That could have a lot to do with how things got handled.

[tomegun]

You guys are making my point exactly. We are a team and we should have each other's back. I do not give out T's all willy nilly. Also, I pre-game a short conversation between the 2 or 3 of us between the whistle and reporting to calm the situation and make sure we administer it correctly. So, my partners will know what I have at that point. Since the coach really did something to deserve it and my partner knows this what conversation should go on? "Coach you must remain seated for the rest of the game." Much more than that isn't needed and it looks bad. A coach sees another coach get T'd by one ref and the other ref is over there being Dr. Ruth for him Why? He knows what he did. You tell him he has to sit and he knows what he has to do. I can't think of anything else that should be discussed unless the coach wants to vent and you want to listen, heck NO! If my partner gives you a T you deserve, you can cry a river but you will not have my shoulder to lean on.
All this is for a credible T of course and this is only for a Technical foul situation. I want to make that clear. I don't care about discussions with the coaches during the course of the game as long as our focus it there. Those discussions during the game can keep us out of a lot of trouble. So, I'm approachable but I will not sacrifice my relationship with my partner to give the appearance to anyone, and I mean even one person, in the facility that I'm the "good cop" after a T.
I read some posts again. The benefit of the doubt is a two way street. If you give him a T I will give you the benefit of the doubt that he deserved it and I don't need to go over there and "I know, I know" him.
If it is a monologue by the coach then he can have it by him/herself while I observe the players. IMHO a weak official is one who comes a runnin whenever the coach says "hey ref" no matter how obsurd the situation. I've been told that a T should be used to make your game better so I don't see how this is a bad situation and not talking to a coach makes it worse. Maybe we should use the T a little more wisely so it is a useful tool instead of a weapon of mass destruction

[Edited by tomegun on Apr 14th, 2004 at 06:57 PM]

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by tomegun
You guys are making my point exactly. We are a team and we should have each other's back. I do not give out T's all willy nilly. Also, I pre-game a short conversation between the 2 or 3 of us between the whistle and reporting to calm the situation and make sure we administer it correctly. So, my partners will know what I have at that point. Since the coach really did something to deserve it and my partner knows this what conversation should go on? "Coach you must remain seated for the rest of the game." Much more than that isn't needed and it looks bad. A coach sees another coach get T'd by one ref and the other ref is over there being Dr. Ruth for him Why? He knows what he did. You tell him he has to sit and he knows what he has to do. I can't think of anything else that should be discussed unless the coach wants to vent and you want to listen, heck NO! If my partner gives you a T you deserve, you can cry a river but you will not have my shoulder to lean on.
All this is for a credible T of course and this is only for a Technical foul situation. I want to make that clear. I don't care about discussions with the coaches during the course of the game as long as our focus it there. Those discussions during the game can keep us out of a lot of trouble. So, I'm approachable but I will not sacrifice my relationship with my partner to give the appearance to anyone, and I mean even one person, in the facility that I'm the "good cop" after a T.
I read some posts again. The benefit of the doubt is a two way street. If you give him a T I will give you the benefit of the doubt that he deserved it and I don't need to go over there and "I know, I know" him.
If it is a monologue by the coach then he can have it by him/herself while I observe the players. IMHO a weak official is one who comes a runnin whenever the coach says "hey ref" no matter how obsurd the situation. I've been told that a T should be used to make your game better so I don't see how this is a bad situation and not talking to a coach makes it worse. Maybe we should use the T a little more wisely so it is a useful tool instead of a weapon of mass destruction

[Edited by tomegun on Apr 14th, 2004 at 06:57 PM]

A monologue by definition is by himself. You seem to be stuck on one thing when EVERYONE else has said we are not at the bench and it is not a conversation. In fact your procedure and my procedure in this situation is identical, where we differ is I have no problem with my partner talking to, or listening to a coach after I call a T.

This thread was about whether it was disloyal to the crew to do so.

[SMEngmann]

I don't see a problem with answering a coach's question if the coach asks it courtiously, as officials we must be approachable and it's when we ignore coaches that trouble begins. If the coach disagrees with a call, let him know when you pass him up the floor that you hear him and if he asks for a simple explanation without being demonstrative, we should give it to him. I don't think the technical is a dramatic tool at all as there is a right way and a wrong way for players and coaches to conduct themselves on the floor. It's not our place as officials to be standoffish, but it is one of our duties to effectively manage a game and sometimes that means talking to coaches. A general rule that I use with coaches is that I will respond to questions, but I won't acknowledge opinions or comments with a discussion, or I'd be willing to discuss the play further if the coach calls TO. Failure to acknowledge coaches in my opinion leads to further problems, however given the situation at hand, sometimes addressing a coach can backfire and lead to further confrontation.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally posted by ref18
My partner and I have an excellent system in place for when a coach gets T'd up. The calling official adminsiters and the other official talks to the offending coach, explaining the T if it was on a player, if it was on a coach, the non-calling official will explain how he wants the coach to behave for the rest of the game, i.e. "coach by rule you must remain seated for the remainder of the game, and any further unsporting actions will no longer be tolerated from anyone on your bench... It actually works really well. I don't feel its being disloyal unless their talking about you when your partner is talking to the coach.

Earlier this school year there was a long thread regarding mechanics when a coach gets whacked. And your post is a very good one. The officiating crew is a team, and when a coach gets a technical foul, one of the non-calling officials has to take care of business doing the things that you discuss in your post. The worst thing that can happen is that a coach gets a technical foul and none of the non-calling officials does nothing and the calling official then attempts to do the things that you discuss in your post.

MTD, Sr.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by SMEngmann
I don't see a problem with answering a coach's question if the coach asks it courtiously, as officials we must be approachable and it's when we ignore coaches that trouble begins. If the coach disagrees with a call, let him know when you pass him up the floor that you hear him and if he asks for a simple explanation without being demonstrative, we should give it to him. I don't think the technical is a dramatic tool at all as there is a right way and a wrong way for players and coaches to conduct themselves on the floor. It's not our place as officials to be standoffish, but it is one of our duties to effectively manage a game and sometimes that means talking to coaches. A general rule that I use with coaches is that I will respond to questions, but I won't acknowledge opinions or comments with a discussion, or I'd be willing to discuss the play further if the coach calls TO. Failure to acknowledge coaches in my opinion leads to further problems, however given the situation at hand, sometimes addressing a coach can backfire and lead to further confrontation.

I agree with your post except after a T. Like I said in previous posts, I will talk to a coach all night long if it is respectful both ways and it doesn't effect my focus. We cannot interrupt the game for every little comment a coach makes or else a coach will recognize the fact that he has you.
Also, I will inform the coach that he/she must remain seated for the remainder of the game. Any long monologue after that will probably be heard because we must hear things but he/she will say this while my back is to them observing players. Maybe the problem is nobody on this board has seen what I'm talking about, and that is good. It just doesn't look good if an official is listening to a coach for a long time. Actually this applies for most of the game. An extended up-close-and-personal with a coach does not look good. I'm all for teamwork and it is good to use certain procedures in certain situations. But there are many negatives and few positives that can occur when you have a discussion like this with one coach.
This thread is about loyalty. My opinion is talking to a coach after a T, a credible T, does not show loyalty to your partner. Besides information about the seatbelt rule there really isn't much I have to say.

I asked this question before and it went ignored. Can someone tell me what is said to a coach or from a coach after a T other than information about the seatbelt rule? I hope this doesn't fall on deaf ears again. I would like to know actual experiences and not "what-ifs." Thank you.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by tomegun
I asked this question before and it went ignored. Can someone tell me what is said to a coach or from a coach after a T other than information about the seatbelt rule? I hope this doesn't fall on deaf ears again. I would like to know actual experiences and not "what-ifs." Thank you.
[/B]

Personally, I don't say anything to a coach other than telling them that they are seatbelted. If the coach does have a legitimate question and they ask it without putting on a show, I will answer him/her if I can- in 10 words or less. If they want a rule explained, I tell them to call a TO, or see me at an intermission or after the game. If the coach just wants to vent(which most of them do), they can vent to my back- and they'd better be sitting while they're venting too. If they cross "my" line while they're venting, then they'll get their 2nd T immediately- with no warning because the first T was their warning imo. As for talking to the other bench, unless there was also a quick, polite question being asked by the other head coach, I'd never dream of going anywhere near that bench. And again, all that they'd receive would be a very quick answer to their question. In my experience, when you've got an irate coach to deal with, the less said, the better. Hard to keep an argument going with only one person talking.

[tomegun]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Personally, I don't say anything to a coach other than telling them that they are seatbelted. If the coach does have a legitimate question and they ask it without putting on a show, I will answer him/her if I can- in 10 words or less. If they want a rule explained, I tell them to call a TO, or see me at an intermission or after the game. If the coach just wants to vent(which most of them do), they can vent to my back- and they'd better be sitting while they're venting too. If they cross "my" line while they're venting, then they'll get their 2nd T immediately- with no warning because the first T was their warning imo. As for talking to the other bench, unless there was also a quick, polite question being asked by the other head coach, I'd never dream of going anywhere near that bench. And again, all that they'd receive would be a very quick answer to their question. In my experience, when you've got an irate coach to deal with, the less said, the better. Hard to keep an argument going with only one person talking. [/B]

JR, where have you been hiding this post? I can live with what you just said entirely! I have no "except" to add. What you just said is what I'm talking about

P.S. Can someone tell me the keystrokes for something besides and ?

[Back In The Saddle]

Originally posted by tomegun
P.S. Can someone tell me the keystrokes for something besides and ?

You'll find a link at the bottom of the page that says "Smilies." Click on it and it'll give you a list of them.

[blindzebra]

tomegun

How does talking to a coach after a non-credible T show loyalty? If we are partners threw good and bad, and in your opinion it is disloyal after a credible T, then it must be a punch in the nose offense, after the game, to do it after a non-credible T, right?

As I have said before, the only place we disagree is the loyalty issue. We have discribed the exact same procedure after a T.

Since you asked, try this, the non-calling official goes over and says, "Coach you lost the box and need to keep your seat." As NCO turns and goes toward the division line the coach says, " Sir, I've never gotten a T before, is there any times where I can stand up?" Legit question, asked in a respectful manor, is it disloyal to answer,or just good game mangement?

[Edited by blindzebra on Apr 15th, 2004 at 04:07 PM]

[tomegun]

Originally posted by blindzebra
tomegun

How does talking to a coach after a non-credible T show loyalty? If we are partners threw good and bad, and in your opinion it is disloyal after a credible T, then it must be a punch in the nose offense, after the game, to do it after a non-credible T, right?

As I have said before, the only place we disagree is the loyalty issue. We have discribed the exact same procedure after a T.

Since you asked, try this, the non-calling official goes over and says, "Coach you lost the box and need to keep your seat." As NCO turns and goes toward the division line the coach says, " Sir, I've never gotten a T before, is there any times where I can stand up?" Legit question, asked in a respectful manor, is it disloyal to answer,or just good game mangement?

[Edited by blindzebra on Apr 15th, 2004 at 04:07 PM]

Good point.

[blindzebra]

Originally posted by tomegun

Good point.

Thanks, if there is a weird situation that preceded the T I'm bringing both coaches together for any conversation.