Crew loyalty v. fairness to coaches (kinda long) - Page 2

LDUB · #16 (**permalink**) Tue Apr 13, 2004, 11:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Back In The Saddle
]Drat! You caught me. I was polishing a question for next year's Part II exam. Here's your opportunity to have input into the correct answer

Only the NFHS could have a seven paragraph question with a true false answer.

blindzebra · #17 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 14, 2004, 12:57am

Quote:

Originally posted by tomegun
I disagree! Assuming that the coach deserved a T, the coach and everyone else knows what he did for the T. It should not need any further explaination. I will go say "coach you must remain seated for the rest of the game" and then the coach gets to see what my back looks like. I expect the same from my partners and this is always part of my pre-game. There is not reason to console a coach as long as you are giving him a deserved T. Nothing shady, you earned it you got it and everyone knows why. You must remain seated. It has been my experience, in 5 states, that coaches fall under three catagories when T'd: 1. The coach who has lost control and even his own fans think he deserved a T 2. The coach who got excited and got a T. He knows why and he will leave it alone 3. The manipulator. He wants to divide and conquer or at least take up some of your time. You talk to #1 and he will do something for the 2nd T. #2 doesn't want to talk because he knows the deal. You talk to #3 and he got you where he wants you. You just messed up because know he will think you are the weak one and he will be in your ear.

For the record, I will say something to a coach if my partner gives him a T. It will only take about 8 seconds and I will move on. All this applies if the T is credible. If not, we have other problems.
This is my view point. It works for me and I will continue to do things this way. At this point, this will be in my pre-game whether I'm the R or not. If something is done and I think my partner is doing everything except rubbing the coach's back after I T him/her up I will let my partner know about it.
Without seeing any responses, this is something we can agree to disagree on. It is what it is and that is the way it will be.

If you don't want to discuss your philosophy then why bring it up.

What I, and others, have brought up is not about explaining or coddling a coach it is about game management.
If I call a T, my partner goes to tell the coach he/she has a seatbelt then they stay at the division line to watch the players and I'll take care of the free throws.

This gives the coach 30 seconds or so to say whatever to calm down or to earn another T. Most coaches want to be heard and then they calm down, if not they'll get tossed.

In 13 years of officiating my partners and I have tossed about 3 coaches, considering we have called at least 15 times that many T's, I think that maybe our philosophy works.

I have no real love for coaches, but I don't think you can make a blanket statement about how all coaches behave.

Hawks Coach · #18 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 14, 2004, 05:17am

tomegun
If you go over there namby pamby with the manipulater, he will be in your ear. If you go over there and tell Mr. Manipulater that your partner just Td him and it's time to take a seat, I don't think he is going to think he somehow has a sympathetic ear, even if you heard a couple things he said before sitting him down. It really just depends on how you communicate, and it sounds like you don't trust your partners to communicate effectively with the coaches.

tomegun · #19 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 14, 2004, 05:56am

Blindzebra, in 10 years officiating I have yet to throw a coach out. That is 0 coaches tossed! I rarely even give coaches Ts. So I think what I'm saying works.

Hawkscoach, your suggested conversation with a coach is the maximum I would do.
ref: "coach, you must remain seated for the rest of the game"
coach: "what did I do to deserve a T?" or "c,mon that wasn't something he/she should have T'd me up for"
ref: "OK coach, if my partner decides to and gets a chance he/she will explain it to you"

How long would that take, 10 seconds? Then they see my back. If a T is warranted, what could a coach possibly be saying that we should be listening to? Really, can someone give me an example of what a coach could say to me after my partner gives the coach a T the coach deserves? I think we have to start giving these coaches more credit. They know what they are doing and they know what officials are weak and what officials are strong. During other parts of the game I will talk, I stress talk, to a coach all the time. We are a team. A member of our team gives a coach a T and the immediate information that coach needs is "coach you must remain seated for the rest of the game." Anything else is extra and part of our game management should be to remain a crew and stay on the same page. I would really like someone to tell me what the purpose of extra conversation would be. If the coach is going to do something to get a second T then so be it. I haven't had this happen to me so I will do what works for me. And it does work well.

SamIAm · #20 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 14, 2004, 10:05am

Blindzebra,

"in 10 years officiating I have yet to throw a coach out. That is 0 coaches tossed! I rarely even give coaches Ts. So I think what I'm saying works."

There was a long thread on game management that sounded just like your quote. I don't think anyone got anywhere with either side of the discussion with the, "I am right because I haven't T'd anyone up." line vs. the "I am right because I don't let coaches walk all over me, which you obviously do" line.

I do your like method of dealing with a T'd coach,

It should not need any further explaination. I will go say "coach you must remain seated for the rest of the game" and then the coach gets to see what my back looks like.

Indy_Ref · #21 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 14, 2004, 10:10am

Tomegun,

I am with you all the way! You want to move to the Indianapolis area to ref with me? I can't agree more with anyone else's opinions than I do with yours. The only thing I might alter slightly is the amount of listening I'd do when I went over to tell the coach about his/her seatbelt rule.

You are absolutely right when saying that the coaches know what they are doing...and they are trying to find a "friend" on our officiating crew when they want to "discuss" their T. Nope...sorry! No friend here! I'm NOT an enemy...but I'm not a friend either. I'm the rules arbitrator of the game...just trying to keep peace the best I can...and trying to call the game the best I can.

If the coach wants to be friends...then he can see me after the game. We can talk at length about anything he wants to...AFTER THE GAME.

blindzebra · #22 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 14, 2004, 11:49am

Quote:

Originally posted by Indy_Ref
Tomegun,

I am with you all the way! You want to move to the Indianapolis area to ref with me? I can't agree more with anyone else's opinions than I do with yours. The only thing I might alter slightly is the amount of listening I'd do when I went over to tell the coach about his/her seatbelt rule.

You are absolutely right when saying that the coaches know what they are doing...and they are trying to find a "friend" on our officiating crew when they want to "discuss" their T. Nope...sorry! No friend here! I'm NOT an enemy...but I'm not a friend either. I'm the rules arbitrator of the game...just trying to keep peace the best I can...and trying to call the game the best I can.

If the coach wants to be friends...then he can see me after the game. We can talk at length about anything he wants to...AFTER THE GAME.

First, if you adjust the amount of listening, you DON'T agree with him you are agreeing with me.

Show me how what I said was a conversation. I said, "The non-calling official tells the coach to sit and stays at the division line and watches the players." If the coach wants to use this time to talk it out to calm down, fine. If they want to act like an idiot, they'll get another T from the other official, the height of crew "loyalty".

Second, if a coach is trying to manipulate you by getting a sympathetic ear, I sure hope you don't have that team again after that at length conversation after the game!

Rickref · #23 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 14, 2004, 12:01pm

I agree with Tomegun, let the non calling official give the coach the bad news on the seatbelt rule and move on. I was told at a clinic the coach will probably say something, let it him have that as his last words, he needs to save a little face in front of his team. Give him the I hear ya and head off to half court.

blindzebra · #24 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 14, 2004, 12:12pm

Quote:

Originally posted by tomegun
Blindzebra, in 10 years officiating I have yet to throw a coach out. That is 0 coaches tossed! I rarely even give coaches Ts. So I think what I'm saying works.

Hawkscoach, your suggested conversation with a coach is the maximum I would do.
ref: "coach, you must remain seated for the rest of the game"
coach: "what did I do to deserve a T?" or "c,mon that wasn't something he/she should have T'd me up for"
ref: "OK coach, if my partner decides to and gets a chance he/she will explain it to you"

How long would that take, 10 seconds? Then they see my back. If a T is warranted, what could a coach possibly be saying that we should be listening to? Really, can someone give me an example of what a coach could say to me after my partner gives the coach a T the coach deserves? I think we have to start giving these coaches more credit. They know what they are doing and they know what officials are weak and what officials are strong. During other parts of the game I will talk, I stress talk, to a coach all the time. We are a team. A member of our team gives a coach a T and the immediate information that coach needs is "coach you must remain seated for the rest of the game." Anything else is extra and part of our game management should be to remain a crew and stay on the same page. I would really like someone to tell me what the purpose of extra conversation would be. If the coach is going to do something to get a second T then so be it. I haven't had this happen to me so I will do what works for me. And it does work well.

So, I guess you are one of these "strong" officials. Show me one example where I said conversation.

I said," That the non-calling official tells the coach to sit then stays at the division line to watch the players." You know I tell him to sit then he gets to see what my back looks like! You make it sound like we go over to the bench, put our arms around them and give them a hug.

How is doing what we should do, notifying the coach and observing the players, not being on the same page?

tomegun · #25 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 14, 2004, 01:00pm

My face to face conversation with the coach lasts from 5-10 seconds. Time that and you will see a lot can be said in a respectful manner during that time. After that I will observe players. It will be obvious to everyone that I'm observing players and not holding a conversation with the coach!
Blindzebra, I'm really not trying to be funny, can you tell me what the conversation is between you and the coach during those free throws? I mean, what is he saying and what are you saying besides telling him about sitting down? I just don't get it. Long, drawn out, up-close conversations with coaches just don't look good, especially to your partner that could be wondering "I gave this coach a T, what could my partner possibly be saying/explaining (consoling) to the coach?" If you keep it short, sweet and move on (observe the players which you can't do while you are facing the coach) then we agree. Anymore conversation and we don't agree. I think you referred to me as being one of those "strong" officials. Thank you. I want to be a strong official. Most of the coaches I've dealt with have more respect for a strong official in the long term than they do a weak official.

Indy_ref, I would love to work some games in my home state. I'm from Richmond and it is a dream to work in the Tiernan Center. Do you have any tournaments this summer?

blindzebra · #26 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 14, 2004, 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by tomegun
My face to face conversation with the coach lasts from 5-10 seconds. Time that and you will see a lot can be said in a respectful manner during that time. After that I will observe players. It will be obvious to everyone that I'm observing players and not holding a conversation with the coach!
Blindzebra, I'm really not trying to be funny, can you tell me what the conversation is between you and the coach during those free throws? I mean, what is he saying and what are you saying besides telling him about sitting down? I just don't get it. Long, drawn out, up-close conversations with coaches just don't look good, especially to your partner that could be wondering "I gave this coach a T, what could my partner possibly be saying/explaining (consoling) to the coach?" If you keep it short, sweet and move on (observe the players which you can't do while you are facing the coach) then we agree. Anymore conversation and we don't agree. I think you referred to me as being one of those "strong" officials. Thank you. I want to be a strong official. Most of the coaches I've dealt with have more respect for a strong official in the long term than they do a weak official.

Indy_ref, I would love to work some games in my home state. I'm from Richmond and it is a dream to work in the Tiernan Center. Do you have any tournaments this summer?

You are not grasping what I'm saying, this is NOT face to face, and it is NOT a conversation, it is a monologue by the coach for the purpose of venting.

I'm not thinking about what my partner is doing because I trust my partner and I know he has my back.

As for being strong or weak, I don't see anything weak about being approachable, I don't see anything weak about finding a way to control a bad situation and trying to not make it worse.

[Edited by blindzebra on Apr 14th, 2004 at 05:36 PM]

Adam · #27 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 14, 2004, 01:27pm

I think the part that confuses me is the mistrust between partners. In general, if I see a partner talking with a coach who is obviously miffed at me, I trust that my partner has my back; at least until I get concrete evidence to the contrary. Are we that paranoid?

Hawks Coach · #28 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 14, 2004, 02:50pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Snaqwells
I think the part that confuses me is the mistrust between partners. In general, if I see a partner talking with a coach who is obviously miffed at me, I trust that my partner has my back; at least until I get concrete evidence to the contrary. Are we that paranoid?

My thoughts exactly - well said.

johnSandlin · #29 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 14, 2004, 03:58pm

I agree with Hawks Coach. I also assume that my partner(s) have my back, unless I am shown something different later. I think this a subject that needs to be thoroughly discussed in pre-game before a game on how to handle situations like this.

For me, I do not care if my partner made the worst call in the world, or called the worst game of his officiating career on a given night, but I am going to have his back all the way for the entire night no matter how bad it gets.

You "live", "work together" as a crew....you "die" and "suffer" as a crew.

Adam · #30 (**permalink**) Wed Apr 14, 2004, 04:30pm

Good point, John. Those of us who work with different partners throughout a season are best served by discussing issues with the assignor rather than sympathizing with a coach. That said, I assume my partner feels the same way, and will give the benefit of the doubt.
Would a long conversation look funny in this situation? Absolutely, but I'm still going to give my P the benefit of the doubt here. I'll ask him what was said, but not confrontationally. More out of curiosity, and to gain better awareness of the situation.