Legal or not???

PGCougar · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 03, 2004, 12:27pm

Was watching a heated AAU game last night and observed some interesting post play. Although there's another thread about illegal screens in the pick & roll, this question is about screens off the ball. Here's the situation:

A1 is a very wide and somewhat large post player. B1 played behind the post on D. Every time ball went to wing or corner, A1 calls for the ball with one or both arms high, but was actually moving around making sure she maintained contact with B1, keeping B1 behind her in the paint, while the wing player A2 slashed in and pulled up for a short range jumper in front of A who was in effect "screening" the post defender. Play was run repeatedly and A1 never actually got the ball once. Jump shot after jump shot. Lots of jawboning by Coach of B but no calls were ever made.

Coach of B makes an adjustment having B1 front A1. Now the lob goes in to A1, and it's evident that A1 doesn't have any skill to finish well. The adjustment worked in this case because A1 couldn't finish, but it made me really think about the post play a bit more.

Question: If A1 was calling for the ball but constantly moving around the blocks, pinning her defender (while moving) is this considered an illegal screen? Should this have been called? What are you as officials looking for in this case?

Sorry for the long set-up of the question.

rainmaker · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 03, 2004, 12:38pm

Quote:

Originally posted by PGCougar
Question: If A1 was calling for the ball but constantly moving around the blocks, pinning her defender (while moving) is this considered an illegal screen? Should this have been called? What are you as officials looking for in this case?

Sorry for the long set-up of the question.

Don't apologize, it's a great question, and the board was looking a little sparse the last couple of days.

I've wondered about this too, with or without the calling for the ball. How much movement is the screener allowed AFTER contact? What kind of contact? Which directions?

I'm thinking in your case, if A1 wasn't actually displacing B1 (such as backing down, like Shaq does), but just "beating her to the spot," then I'm thinking it's pretty much legal. But I'd be interested in hearing any other opinions.

JRutledge · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 03, 2004, 12:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by PGCougar
Question: If A1 was calling for the ball but constantly moving around the blocks, pinning her defender (while moving) is this considered an illegal screen?

I will ask you the same thing I ask coaches when they complain, what is wrong with the action? Did the defender make an effort to get around the A1?

Quote:

Originally posted by PGCougar
Should this have been called?

No. If this is normal post play, I see nothing wrong with this. A player can move to hold their position. And I do not consider this a "regular" screen. And even if you use the screening principles here, B1 in your example is not making much of an effort to get around A1. I am not calling a foul because they are lazy.

Quote:

Originally posted by PGCougar
What are you as officials looking for in this case?

Not sure I understand the question. Because what you are asking, I know I am not looking to call a foul on a screen.

Peace

N_Stripes · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 03, 2004, 12:42pm

Quote:

Originally posted by PGCougar
[Question: If A1 was calling for the ball but constantly moving around the blocks, pinning her defender (while moving) is this considered an illegal screen? Should this have been called? What are you as officials looking for in this case?[/B]

Yes, I would have an illegal screen; although camoflauged(sp?) by A1's persistant request for the ball. I am looking for the defender B1, whom I feel is being placed at a disadvantage by being blocked from getting to the player with the ball by a moving A1.

[Edited by N_Stripes on Apr 3rd, 2004 at 11:45 AM]

canuckrefguy · #5 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 03, 2004, 01:08pm

BUT....

Is B1 making any attempt to get past A1 to defend the outside shot? Or is she still jockeying with A1 for post position?

PGCougar · #6 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 03, 2004, 01:21pm

Quote:

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
BUT....

Is B1 making any attempt to get past A1 to defend the outside shot? Or is she still jockeying with A1 for post position?

From the stands (not a good officiating or coaching position - LOL) it looked as though A1 was sliding with B1, blocking B1's path to help, but was doing so with her arm up as though calling for the ball. Was it deliberate? Don't know, but I've gotta admit A1 was terrible with the ball, adding to my speculation that it just might have been planned that way.

N_Stripes · #7 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 03, 2004, 01:26pm

I get a nice mental picture of the play, post my reply, and you guys have to come in and give me a half dozen more different visuals.

I need a BC.

Mark Dexter · #8 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 03, 2004, 01:43pm

It seems legal to me.

Once A1 has LGP, she's allowed to move as long as she doesn't initiate contact. If this is simply a case of B1 isn't quick enough to get around the screen, then too bad for B1 - I'm not calling a foul for lack of ability.

If, however, B1 is trying to get around, and A1 steps into B1's path and there is substantial contact - that's when I have a foul.

Mark Dexter · #9 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 03, 2004, 01:44pm

Quote:

Originally posted by N_Stripes
I get a nice mental picture of the play, post my reply, and you guys have to come in and give me a half dozen more different visuals.

I need a BC.

I think we should get FOX Sports to contract with this website. When we ref, we can all wear something like the "ump-cam" they had for football. Then everyone will know exactly what play we're talking about (until the discussion about different angles, are you in position, etc. . . .)

rainmaker · #10 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 03, 2004, 03:39pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
I think we should get FOX Sports to contract with this website. When we ref, we can all wear something like the "ump-cam" they had for football. Then everyone will know exactly what play we're talking about (until the discussion about different angles, are you in position, etc. . . .)

Great idea. Would it have audio, too? Parents might start to hear themselves? Would that help or hurt us?

PGCougar · #11 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 03, 2004, 04:18pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
It seems legal to me.

Once A1 has LGP, she's allowed to move as long as she doesn't initiate contact. If this is simply a case of B1 isn't quick enough to get around the screen, then too bad for B1 - I'm not calling a foul for lack of ability.

If, however, B1 is trying to get around, and A1 steps into B1's path and there is substantial contact - that's when I have a foul.

Let's assume there was constant contact, from the time A1 locked in and posted up till the time A2 used A1 as a screen for her jumper. Again, I wasn't close enough to see, but I got the sense that A1 was maintaining contact (A1's butt to B1's trunk) throughout. It was tough to see if there was any hard pushing for displacement. Still legal? Why or why not?

Personally, I thought B1 could have done a better job of spinning off of A1 whenever she needed to step in on A2's drive to provide help, but I couldn't tell if she was being pushed around a bit anytime she tried. It was pretty physical and no there was no tape to review afterwards.

Mark Dexter · #12 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 03, 2004, 05:17pm

Quote:

Originally posted by PGCougar

Let's assume there was constant contact, from the time A1 locked in and posted up till the time A2 used A1 as a screen for her jumper. Again, I wasn't close enough to see, but I got the sense that A1 was maintaining contact (A1's butt to B1's trunk) throughout. It was tough to see if there was any hard pushing for displacement. Still legal? Why or why not?

I think B1 has to make the effort to get around A1 and play at the ball in this case - then the amount of contact and how much it affects B1 will become apparent.

ChuckElias · #13 (**permalink**) Sat Apr 03, 2004, 06:35pm

Seems to me that if A1 (the screener) has her arms up and is simply moving to keep her body between the defender and the shooter that this is perfectly legal. Isn't this exactly what "boxing out" on rebounding is? You have your arms up and you move your body to stay between your opponent and the ball. As long as A1 (the screener) does not extend an arm or leg to impede the defender from going around, there's no call to made here.

NICK · #14 (**permalink**) Sun Apr 04, 2004, 02:19am

The way I read the post was that A1 was in front of B1 trying to get a pass from A2 which to me is legal. The responsibility in now on B1 to avoid contact as she is standing behind A1. I do not see any illegal screens here.

TimTaylor · #15 (**permalink**) Mon Apr 05, 2004, 03:15am

IMHO whether or not A1 has a hand up calling for the ball has absolutely no bearing on the legality of any contact. A1 has the right to move as long as she gets to the place she wants to be before the opponent does, and she dosen't make illegal contact doing so.

You can't really call this a screen, since A1 is really working against her own defender in the post. Unless and until B1 makes a definitive move to get around A1 & forces her to make illegal contact in the process, you've got nothing.

Excessively physical/rough play in the post is a separate issue...new topic anyone?