Legal or not???

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Mark Dexter
It seems legal to me.

Once A1 has LGP, she's allowed to move as long as she doesn't initiate contact. If this is simply a case of B1 isn't quick enough to get around the screen, then too bad for B1 - I'm not calling a foul for lack of ability.

If, however, B1 is trying to get around, and A1 steps into B1's path and there is substantial contact - that's when I have a foul.

LGP only applies to defensive players. A1 can not, by definition, have LGP.

If B1 is attempting to get around A1 to contest A2 and A1 is serving as a screen and moving, I've got a block on A1. Screeners can not be moving to impede the defensive players progress...ever.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Seems to me that if A1 (the screener) has her arms up and is simply moving to keep her body between the defender and the shooter that this is perfectly legal. Isn't this exactly what "boxing out" on rebounding is? You have your arms up and you move your body to stay between your opponent and the ball. As long as A1 (the screener) does not extend an arm or leg to impede the defender from going around, there's no call to made here.

On rebounding, there is no longer offense and defense. Different rules apply (4-36 vs. 4-39).

In the rebounding rule, the rebounder is not required to be stationary, just be the first to the spot.

In the screening rule, the screener is reqire to be stationary in all but one narrow case.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

In the screening rule, the screener is reqire to be stationary in all but one narrow case.

No, no, no, no, no . . . . . .

The screener can do whatever he wants - there has to be illegal contact while the screener is moving illegally in order to have a foul.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Camron Rust
If B1 is attempting to get around A1 to contest A2 and A1 is serving as a screen and moving, I've got a block on A1. Screeners can not be moving to impede the defensive players progress...ever.

Camron, I don't feel comfortable about this definition. Seems to me, if a screener sets and the defender slows down short of contact and then tries to get around, time and distance still apply for the screen, and the screen should be allowed to move to stay in the path of the defender, as long as they allow said defender time to change path again or stop. If the defender has slowed way down, that wouldn't necessarily need to be very much distance or very much time.

Also, I'm assuming you are assuming that there is contact. You don't call fouls for "moving" screens when there's no contact. Do you?

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by rainmaker

Camron, I don't feel comfortable about this definition. Seems to me, if a screener sets and the defender slows down short of contact and then tries to get around, time and distance still apply for the screen, and the screen should be allowed to move to stay in the path of the defender, as long as they allow said defender time to change path again or stop. If the defender has slowed way down, that wouldn't necessarily need to be very much distance or very much time.

Yes, time and distance do apply. But when B1 is attempting to get around, A1 better stop moving or they haven't allowed any time or distance. If B1 is trying to slide by A1, then the only way A1 can stop them is to move sideways with contact.

Originally posted by rainmaker

Also, I'm assuming you are assuming that there is contact. You don't call fouls for "moving" screens when there's no contact. Do you?

Of course...contact required.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

Yes, time and distance do apply. But when B1 is attempting to get around, A1 better stop moving or they haven't allowed any time or distance. If B1 is trying to slide by A1, then the only way A1 can stop them is to move sideways with contact.

1. You're talking about after initial contact?

2. What if A1 stepped slightly backward and sideways, such that contact was broken, or only maintained by B1's forward motion?

[TimTaylor]

Originally posted by Camron Rust


In the screening rule, the screener is reqire to be stationary in all but one narrow case.

Yep -NFHS:4-39-2-C "The screener must be stationary, except when both are moving in the same path and same direction."

and further in 4-39-6 "When screening an opponent who is moving in the same path and direction as the screener is moving, the opponent is responsible for contact if the screener slows up or stops."

IMHO it's really a judgement call on our parts, and if we "referee the defense", I think it becomes a lot clearer. If B1 makes a definitive move to get around A1 and A1 reacts causing illegal contact - you've got a whistle and either a block or hold on A1, depending on the nature on the contact. Conversely, if B1 just dances around and never makes a legitimate attempt to get around A1, you've got nada.

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by rainmaker

1. You're talking about after initial contact?

2. What if A1 stepped slightly backward and sideways, such that contact was broken, or only maintained by B1's forward motion?

1. No. It could be the initial contact. If B2 is attempting to get to A1 when there is contact, A2 better be stationary or moving directly away from B2 (and the point of contact). Any other movement by A2 is a block (illegal screen).

2. Still A2's foul, they were not moving in the same path/direction but obliquely away (a movement only allow by guards, not screeners)

[TravelinMan]

Can't see this as a moving screen (this is a violation, not a foul) since A1 was calling for the ball and moving to receive it as part of norlmal post play. Doesn't sound like foul by either A1 or B1 in post play. My question is where is B2? Guarding A2 on jumper? Or are they in a zone? Why isnt team B playing tighter defense on the A2 wing jump shooter? Let's keep this simple.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by TravelinMan
Can't see this as a moving screen (this is a violation, not a foul) since A1 was calling for the ball and moving to receive it as part of norlmal post play.

You lost me. What is a violation here? A moving screen?

[mick]

Originally posted by TravelinMan
Can't see this as a moving screen (this is a violation, not a foul) since A1 was calling for the ball and moving to receive it as part of norlmal post play. Doesn't sound like foul by either A1 or B1 in post play. My question is where is B2? Guarding A2 on jumper? Or are they in a zone? Why isnt team B playing tighter defense on the A2 wing jump shooter? Let's keep this simple.

TravelinMan,
If you push the quote button, it's be easier for anyone to see which post you are referencing.
mick

[TravelinMan]

Originally posted by mick

TravelinMan,
If you push the quote button, it's be easier for anyone to see which post you are referencing.
mick

Thanks Mick. Let me try it. Learning how to use features. Jurassic - yes, moving screen is violation. It is a foul only if there is contact. I believe some of the posts talked about contact in moving screen. Doesn't have to be contact.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by TravelinMan

Can't see this as a moving screen (this is a violation, not a foul) since A1 was calling for the ball and moving to receive it as part of norlmal post play.

Jurassic - yes, moving screen is violation. It is a foul only if there is contact. I believe some of the posts talked about contact in moving screen. Doesn't have to be contact.
[/QUOTE]T-Man, can you post a rules reference for calling a moving screen a violation? I've never heard of a moving screen without contact being a violation in either NCAA or NFHS rules.

[rainmaker]

Originally posted by Camron Rust

1. No. It could be the initial contact. If B2 is attempting to get to A1 when there is contact, A2 better be stationary or moving directly away from B2 (and the point of contact). Any other movement by A2 is a block (illegal screen).

2. Still A2's foul, they were not moving in the same path/direction but obliquely away (a movement only allow by guards, not screeners)

1 Okay. A1 sets good position, holds, B2 comes in, makes contact, but doesn't foul. Now, is A1 required to just stand there while B2 goes around? No movement allowed?

2. So, again after contact, A1 steps back thus breaking contact, and slightly sideways, why isn't that a new legal screen? A1 could pull this maneuver and leave time and distance, since B2 isn't moving very fast, and not much time and distance is required. Why not?

Would anyone besides Camron and me have an opinion on this? Should we take a vote or something?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by rainmaker
Would anyone besides Camron and me have an opinion on this? Should we take a vote or something?

In Chicago, if you and Camron voted on something, the results would be 7-5.

My only comment is that A1 is given no additional rights just because s/he is calling for the ball. We've all seen A1 "hold" B1 to get (or try to get) the ball. The hold can be reaching back, extending the lower arm, moving illegally in front, ... We've probably all called (some of) this a foul.

Also, we've all seen A1 set an illegal screen on B1 so B1 cna't play help defense on a drive -- usually on the baseline. We've all called that.

So, watch B1 (referee the defense). If A1 is illegally stopping B1 from performing normal defensive actions, call the foul. IF B1 is content to play behind A1 and just stand there, there's nothing to call.