Substitution mess/help!

[Indy_Ref]

Here is the situation that happened to me and my partner last night. I may have blown it...but the game was at a very touchy point and I didn't want to push it over the edge by T'ing the coach.

4th quarter of one of those very messy games (you know, everything you do call is wrong and everything you don't call, you missed it!). B1 commits his 5th foul. B6 & B7 are properly reported to enter the game for B2 & B3. I report the foul. Official scorer tells me that B1 has committed his 5th foul. B6 & B7 get up to enter the game. They start to walk onto the floor. I stop them. I tell them to remain at the table. I tell the coach of team B that B1 has fouled out. I tell the time keeper to "give me 30 seconds". Unfortunately, I did NOT tell B1 that he has fouled out, but B1 did know he fouled out and proceeded to the bench. Coach B tells B6 (who has reported to enter the game for B2) to enter for B1. The official scorer tells me that B6 has reported for B2. I tell the coach that B6 has reported for B2 and cannot replace B1. Meanwhile, coach B is meandering along the sideline complaining that I won't let his player(s) report in. I tell the coach as soon as you get a replacement for B1, B6 & B7 can enter the game (a la 3-3-1c). 30 seconds expire. I tell coach I need a replacement now because his 30 seconds are up. Coach B complains a little more but ends up FINALLY replacing B1 with B8. I then beckon on B6 & B7. Coach B calls B6 back to the bench saying that he no longer wants B6 in the game. I tell the coach that B6 must enter the game since he has properly reported for B2, and that B2 must leave. B6 enters the game. B2 isn't paying attention to B6's entry. We two officials start toward our designated spots for a throw in and notice 6 guys on the court! I tell B2 he MUST leave since he has been replaced by B6. B2 finally leaves the court.

Can anyone follow this mess?? If so, did I (we) do the right thing? I can't find a casebook that closely relates to my situation. I know a player can be called back from the table during a live ball or during a dead ball when he hasn't reported legally before a warning horn, but can he legally be called back when it comes time to enter the game on a dead ball after he has reported properly?

HELP!

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Dec 21st, 2000 at 08:31 AM]

[wadep1965]

You said: "Coach B tells B6 (who has reported to enter the game for B2) to enter for B1. The official scorer tells me that B6 has reported for B2. I tell the coach that B6 has reported for B2 and cannot replace B1."

I've been refereeing high school basketball for 12 years, and this caught me by surprise. Have I been in a dungeon for 12 years?? I can't remember ever hearing that once a substitute reported to the table that he was REQUIRED to report for ONLY the one player he/she may have mentioned when reporting. Does the rulebook specifically say that they have to announce who they are substituting for? If so, does the coach not have the right to change his mind/strategy after said announcement? That's the first thing that I'm concerned with here. Read on...


You write: "I know a player can be called back from the table during a live ball or during a dead ball when he hasn't reported legally before a warning horn, but can he legally be called back when it comes time to enter the game on a dead ball after he has reported properly?"

My reply?? Why not?? Where does it say in the rule book that the coach HAS TO substitute for specific players? Under your scenario, again, a coach could not change his/her mind at this point. What would happen if substitute A3 were to go to the table, report for A1 (accidentally), and then go into the game. As A1 is walking toward the bench, the coach catches this and says, "You're not supposed to come out, A5 is." Under the scenario described above (in your situation), would you have required A1 to leave the game since that is what the scorer reported that A3 said? I'm certain that this would create more problems than any official would want to handle in a game.

I can't think of an instance when a scorer had to call me over when a sub entered for someone other than who he/she reported for. In fact, I can't recall when I've actually heard of a sub specifically designating who he/she is replacing. They usually just report as a sub, and when called into the game, they pull out who they are replacing. The scorer doesn't even get involved in the process.

Maybe we've been doing it wrong here in LA, who knows?? I'd be interested in reading replies to your query, though! Have a great season.....I hope you don't have many more like last night .

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Indy_Ref
Here is the situation that happened to me and my partner last night. I may have blown it...but the game was at a very touchy point and I didn't want to push it over the edge by T'ing the coach.

4th quarter of one of those very messy games (you know, everything you do call is wrong and everything you don't call, you missed it!). B1 commits his 5th foul. B6 & B7 are properly reported to enter the game for B2 & B3. I report the foul. Official scorer tells me that B1 has committed his 5th foul. B6 & B7 get up to enter the game. They start to walk onto the floor. I stop them. I tell them to remain at the table. I tell the coach of team B that B1 has fouled out. I tell the time keeper to "give me 30 seconds". Unfortunately, I did NOT tell B1 that he has fouled out, but B1 did know he fouled out and proceeded to the bench. Coach B tells B6 (who has reported to enter the game for B2) to enter for B1. The official scorer tells me that B6 has reported for B2. I tell the coach that B6 has reported for B2 and cannot replace B1. Meanwhile, coach B is meandering along the sideline complaining that I won't let his player(s) report in. I tell the coach as soon as you get a replacement for B1, B6 & B7 can enter the game (a la 3-3-1c). 30 seconds expire. I tell coach I need a replacement now because his 30 seconds are up. Coach B complains a little more but ends up FINALLY replacing B1 with B8. I then beckon on B6 & B7. Coach B calls B6 back to the bench saying that he no longer wants B6 in the game. I tell the coach that B6 must enter the game since he has properly reported for B2, and that B2 must leave. B6 enters the game. B2 isn't paying attention to B6's entry. We two officials start toward our designated spots for a throw in and notice 6 guys on the court! I tell B2 he MUST leave since he has been replaced by B6. B2 finally leaves the court.

Can anyone follow this mess?? If so, did I (we) do the right thing? I can't find a casebook that closely relates to my situation. I know a player can be called back from the table during a live ball or during a dead ball when he hasn't reported legally before a warning horn, but can he legally be called back when it comes time to enter the game on a dead ball after he has reported properly?

HELP!

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Dec 21st, 2000 at 08:31 AM]

Sorry, but you were wrong. B6 could have entered for B1.

The substitutes can be withdrawn until they legally enter the court. So, the coache could have (a) withdrawn B6, (b) sent B6 back to the table to replace B1. Shortcut the process and let him send B6 in for B1.

[Indy_Ref]

Wade, I don't want any more like this either! But, I want to be prepared the next time this happens. This is the first time it has ever happened to me.

Section 3 Substitution (Verbatim the rule book)
Art. 1...a substitute who desires to enter shall report to the scorers, giving his/her number AND the number of the player who is being replaced.

This implies that the reporting player MUST substitute for the player that he/she says he/she is replacing. Maybe I'm overanalyzing the book? Is B6, as you say, REQUIRED to report for B2, or can coach B change his mind after the fact? I can't find a reference in the rule book or case book!

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Dec 21st, 2000 at 11:04 AM]

[Indy_Ref]

Originally posted by bob jenkins
Sorry, but you were wrong. B6 could have entered for B1.

The substitutes can be withdrawn until they legally enter the court. So, the coache could have (a) withdrawn B6, (b) sent B6 back to the table to replace B1. Shortcut the process and let him send B6 in for B1. [/B]

Bob, is this standard, unwritten knowledge? Or, is there a reference in the rule book or case book?

[Brian Watson]

I think the reporting for who you are going in for is more of a tradition and is mainly for the announcer and stat people. I base this on the fact that there is NO penalty in the book for replacing another player after you check in. Basketball has much more liberal sub rules than say volleyball, so use them. As far as I am concerned, as long as that kid is a legal sub, let him play. In fact, what if that coach had no more subs on the bench? Would you have made him play with four until the next dead ball?

Good call not to T the coach. While he deserved it, you were unsure of the rules, better to err on the side of caution. I found it very interesting the other night at an association meeting. We were discussing indirects vs directs and our interpreter went over all directs, but left off the one for not replacing a sub. He did it on purpose. He said we should never (again, never say never, but in very, very, rare instinces)call that. If we do, we are not doing a good job of preventitive officiating.

[Indy_Ref]

and that is the way that I'll handle it in the future...unless someone on here can cite a better reason for not doing it that way.

I got caught up in "what is the absolute technicality of the rule" rather than "what is good common sense, here". I also allowed myself to be influenced a bit by the home (homer!) score book.

As I stated, it was a "heated" game...and that is precisely when we officials need to keep our cool the most!! At that moment, I admit failure for about 5 minutes. I guess the moral of the story is to use common sense if you aren't 100% sure of the rule...AND STAY CALM, COOL, AND COLLECTED...no matter what!

BTW, my partner ended up T'ing that coach about 1 minute later. It happened after another player on team B fouled out. My partner went over to the coach to tell him it was that player's 5th foul. He flashed the 5 signal with his hand while saying, "Coach, that is #23's 5th foul." The coach walked toward my partner and ended up responding with, "Get your hand out of my face! I know how many fouls my player has." That, subsequently, drew a T from my partner. And before my partner could get away, the coach took another step toward him and responded with, "You're a little punk! You don't know how to officiate!" To which my partner gave him the heave-ho. I came up to get my partner out of there and told him to go down to the FT administrator's position as I watched the coach SLOWLY saunter out of the gym.

After that ejection, a certain calmness came about the gym.

Geesh, what a night!

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Indy_Ref
Bob, is this standard, unwritten knowledge? Or, is there a reference in the rule book or case book?

Well, a substitute isn't a player until they legally enter the court.

And, 3.3.1C indicates that a sub who has reported can replace a different player.

[Indy_Ref]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by bob jenkins

Well, a substitute isn't a player until they legally enter the court.

And, 3.3.1C indicates that a sub who has reported can replace a different player.

Bob, I agree that "...a substitute isn't a player until they legally enter the court." I have no qualms about that.

However, 3.3.1c in the case book states that A6 is CALLED BACK TO THE BENCH and re-reports to enter the game for another player. It doesn't say anything about his STAYING at the table but the coach changes his mind and tells him to enter for A2 instead of A1 BEFORE THE BALL BECOMES DEAD.

I could be knit-picking, but for the sake of discussion, I just want to be absolutely sure what the intent of the rule is. Please, bear with me!

[Edited by Indy_Ref on Dec 21st, 2000 at 11:57 AM]

[Richard Ogg]

My take on this is that B6 could substitute for any player on the court until the ball becomes live again.

Try comparing this. What if B6 reported to the table and announced his substitution for B2. The scorer checks and B6 is not in the book. We all know that even though B6 has announced his intentions to the scorer, unless he enters the game there is no administrative penalty (Technical Foul). The coach walks over to hear that B6 is not in the book, and to avoid the T, changes his mind and puts B6 back on the bench. This case demonstrates to me that we are not bound to follow the initial intent of B6 when he reported to the scorer.

I'd apply the same logic here. Allow B6 to substitute for whoever manages to stay off the court when we're ready to go again.

[mick]

Indy_Ref,
I applaud your efforts to get this deal straight, and when you get the quality of responses like were on this thread,
We all know we came to the right place.
I can remember being locked hard into my knowledge of the rules, and experience still teaches me their intent.
Good post.
mick

[Indy_Ref]

all the responses have been good and educational. And, I believe everyone posting has developed a "common sense" answer to my original problem. I AGREE that in this situation, we probably ought to let B6 come in for whomever the coach decides he ought to replace (the fouled out B1, instead of B2 in this instance.)

However, no one has been able to say, "Well, this is the absolute correct answer..." or "This happened to me and the right way to handle this situation is..." Maybe I should ask the NF? Maybe someone else will see this post and relate the "absolute" answer that I'm looking for?

[bob jenkins]

Originally posted by Indy_Ref
However, 3.3.1c in the case book states that A6 is CALLED BACK TO THE BENCH and re-reports to enter the game for another player. It doesn't say anything about his STAYING at the table but the coach changes his mind and tells him to enter for A2 instead of A1 BEFORE THE BALL BECOMES DEAD.


[Edited by Indy_Ref on Dec 21st, 2000 at 11:57 AM]

We must be reading a different 3.3.1C. Mine says (emphasis added) If A6 remains at the table he/she may actually replace a different player if such request is made when the next opportunity for substitution occurs.

So, it has nothing to do with going back to the bench, and nothing to do with making the request before the ball becomes dead.

In the case, A6 reports, but can't enter immediately. In your instance, A6 reports, but can't enter immediately. The reasons they can't enter are slightly different, but that doesn't matter. They can still be withdrawn, and still can replace someone else.

Other than having the exact same play in the case book that you asked about, I don't think this could be much clearer.

[Indy_Ref]

You are correct! We ARE reading the same book!! I just didn't read the last sentence of 3.3.1c

Thanks for straightening my "knuckle head" out!! I will NEVER make that mistake again. I'm glad there is MUCH wisdom on this forum...I have learned SO much in the past 2 years!!

[Hawks Coach]

Is this only in case book? I see none of this language in the rule book.

I am relieved at this resolution. I have, on many occasions, had a sub going in the game for A1 only to have A2 commit 3rd or 4th foul and say to sub, "go in for A2 now, they're in foul trouble." I always thought it was legal.