Time-out or not?

rainmaker · #1 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 23, 2000, 10:31pm

Really lousy game, with two very untalented teams, lots of fouls, lots of confusion, frustrated coaches, etc. (freshman girls).

Okay, so, I'm new trail ready to hand the ball to the in-bounder. She's had trouble getting the ball inbounds all game. I look around, making sure everyone is ready, then I hand off the ball and start counting vvveeerrryyy ssslllooowwwlllyyy. 1----2----3----4-- I look up at the inbounder who has that deer-in-the-headlights look in her eye and she says, "can't we take a time-out?" sure no problem, whistle, yell "Time out!" (this is where I'd like a full time out signal!) the defender runs over to her bench, and now that the defender is gone ...

I can see that the girl who is supposed to receive the ball is tying her shoes! Both these girls look at me in shock and I can hear them thinking, "Oh, no, what is the coach going to say?"

After I report, I dash over to the coach and say, "I'm sorry; if I'd known why she was having trouble, I'd have held up the ball, but once I call it, I can't take it back." Coach was nice about it, and had plenty of use for the time out, but I heard her telling the girls, next time da da da da da da.

I didn't have any choice, did I? Once I had blown, yelled, and the girls were all headed for the benches, I couldn't have called it back, could I?

Mark Dexter · #2 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 23, 2000, 10:46pm

This definately wasn't your fault. The player requested a Time-out, she didn't say "her shoe needs to be tied." Anyways, that should have been brought to your attention before the ball became live.

The only sticking point might have been (luckily it wasn't) the phrasing as a question. Some coaches might try to argue - she was just checking if we could, she didn't want one.

(1) [immediately after a field goal] CAN we take a time-out?
(2) [3 seconds left, and coach is screaming] Can we have a -%^&#^%$$ing time-out?!!_!!?#!??!?!!

AK ref SE · #3 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 23, 2000, 10:49pm

I think once you have made the signal for time-out.... You cannot call it back! If you would have blown the whistle to stop the clock(so she could tie her shoe) and not use a timeout, in this situation you probably would have gotten an earful from the coach!

AK ref SE

Mark Dexter · #4 (**permalink**) Sat Dec 23, 2000, 11:00pm

Went through the book, and found a few points.

5-8-3: Time-out occurs when an official grants a player's oral or visual request for a time-out.

5.8.3E. Official erroneously grants B a TO when they cannot have one, ruling "The time-out once granted cannot be revoked."

bluezebra · #5 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 24, 2000, 12:32am

Incidents like this wouldn't happen if coaches understood rules and taught their players what to do.

JRutledge · #6 (**permalink**) Sun Dec 24, 2000, 01:02am

Hindsight is 20-20 but I would not have given a time-out in that situation. But I would not take it back if I called it though unless it was obvious that the time-out was not what is asked for. This is a coaching problem, the coach should teach the players better than that. But that is my opinion, I was not really there. But it seemed to me from what you discribed as a question, not a request.

rainmaker · #7 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 25, 2000, 04:20am

Quote:

Originally posted by bluezebra
Incidents like this wouldn't happen if coaches understood rules and taught their players what to do.

You are absolutely right about this, and I think the coach was nice about it because she saw clearly that this was the players' problem, not my mistake. She seems to me like a pretty good coach, with a lot of work to do. In her school district there is no Jr Hi ball of any kind, so her freshmen are incredibly green. I hope I work another of their games later in the season -- I have a feeling it might be a pleasant improvement.

Rut--you are right that if she had asked a question as a point of information I would not have granted, but just answered the question. But the tone in her voice was clearly requesting -- although I don't think she realized that was what she was doing. If I had seen the girl tying her shoes, I would not have granted the TO, just snatched the ball back and started over. I didn't see her until way too late.

JRutledge · #8 (**permalink**) Mon Dec 25, 2000, 02:25pm

you had to be there. It can be hard to determine if I am not the one in the hot seat. But if you feel that you did the right thing, then you did the right thing. You seem to understand that better than I would, I was not there. I am just giving theory on the issue

Have a Merry Christmas Rainmaker and to everyone else too!!

Mark Padgett · #9 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 26, 2000, 02:27am

Julie - why were you counting slowly? Was the girl having trouble inbounding all game because the defense was good? If so, you should not alter the game to penalize that defense for doing their job. Was this an OSAA game? If so, it's the coach's responsibility to help that player get the ball in, not yours, even at the freshman level.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but this is a point I stress over and over again - our job is not to "level the playing field", but call the game fairly so that the team that earns the win gets it, because they are supposed to.

Having said that, I do make allowances in purely rec leagues where the league policy is to emphasize fun, not competitiveness.

rainmaker · #10 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 26, 2000, 03:45am

Mark -- I agree that we should not level the playing field and I wasn't trying to do that. I was counting vvveeerrryyy ssslllooowwwlllyyy for both teams, because they were very unskilled and not having much luck. This was OSAA, but not a league game. Actually I wasn't counting much slower than a lot of refs, but a true 5-second count is pretty fast, and I was criticized in the first half for counting too fast. So I slowed it down quite a bit, although I'm quite sure that I had it right in the beginning.

The girl was having trouble inbounding in this case, because the girl who was supposed to receive the ball was tying her shoes! Of course, I didn't realize it because she was behind the defender (from my point of view).

JRutledge · #11 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 26, 2000, 04:38am

I understand that they were not talented, but do you not think you are doing the girls a disservice by counting slowly? We are suppose to be counting a real 5 seconds, if you give them a slow 5 second count and it turns into 8 seconds, what happens when they get into a game with a ref that does not do that. You are also taking good play away from the defense. I am sure that they would get a clue after a couple of 5 second violations, but you are in the long run putting them at a disadvantage. At least in my opinion.

mick · #12 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 26, 2000, 10:27am

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Really lousy game, with two very untalented teams, lots of fouls, lots of confusion, frustrated coaches, etc. (freshman girls).

I can see that the girl who is supposed to receive the ball is tying her shoes! Both these girls look at me in shock and I can hear them thinking, "Oh, no, what is the coach going to say?"

After I report, I dash over to the coach and say, "I'm sorry; if I'd known why she was having trouble, I'd have held up the ball, but once I call it, I can't take it back." Coach was nice about it, and had plenty of use for the time out, but I heard her telling the girls, next time da da da da da da.

I didn't have any choice, did I? Once I had blown, yelled, and the girls were all headed for the benches, I couldn't have called it back, could I?

Rainmaker,
If I recognized the exact purpose of the request, I would have let both benches know of my determination, before I reported a time-out to the table.
As time goes on, you will probably see a flailing shoelace before the "wearer" does.
Don't forget, officiating is not brain surgery... it's just fun. Relax more. See more.

mick

Glenn Lampman · #13 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 26, 2000, 02:31pm

I agree (and disagree with Mick and Rut) The count is 5 seconds, not 8 not 10 etc. You are not doing either team a service by slowing the count. A couple of violations would have cured that quickly or the coach needs to get a clue. I disagree in that I know of no where it allows for an "officials" time-out to allow a player to tie their shoe. Once the ball is alive, you would be incorrect to blow a whistle to allow that, but could delay it coming alive to allow the girl to tie the shoe.

mick · #14 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 26, 2000, 03:05pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Glenn Lampman
I agree (and disagree with Mick and Rut) The count is 5 seconds, not 8 not 10 etc. You are not doing either team a service by slowing the count. A couple of violations would have cured that quickly or the coach needs to get a clue. I disagree in that I know of no where it allows for an "officials" time-out to allow a player to tie their shoe. Once the ball is alive, you would be incorrect to blow a whistle to allow that, but could delay it coming alive to allow the girl to tie the shoe.

Glenn,
Good point, but this was a freshman game.

mick

JRutledge · #15 (**permalink**) Tue Dec 26, 2000, 03:16pm

What are you disagreeing with Mick and me for. I think we said two totally different things.

Quote:

Originally posted by Glenn Lampman
I agree (and disagree with Mick and Rut) The count is 5 seconds, not 8 not 10 etc. You are not doing either team a service by slowing the count. A couple of violations would have cured that quickly or the coach needs to get a clue. I disagree in that I know of no where it allows for an "officials" time-out to allow a player to tie their shoe. Once the ball is alive, you would be incorrect to blow a whistle to allow that, but could delay it coming alive to allow the girl to tie the shoe.