Bang bang plays are what we see every play all night long in our advocation. Did anyone see the game on TV and the last play where a foul was call with .03 seconds? In playing it over in my mind (replays, replays)it seems that there was no one player that was in a position have an advantage nor was placed at a disadvantage, especially since the ball was not in control by anyone. Pls comments.

In watching the replay a few times after the game (I recorded it), The Tennesee player was pretty much jumping straight up to get the rebound & the Baylor player came from OOB and made heavy contact w/the Tennesee player, knocking her over.

I think it was a good call. It is just unfortunate that a great game like that had to end that way.

I thought the foul itself doesn't stop the clock...the whistle does?? From the replay I watched, they stopped the clock on the impact of the foul. I didn't see an official in the camera's view where they could determine that the whistle was blown with the time that they put back up.

This is a situation where having to review replay hurt the officials. Clearly a foul was called just before the expiration of time. However, without the benefit of replay, 99% of officials would have declared that the horn sounded and OT would be played. But, since a whistle was blown, officials have the obligation to see if it occurred before time expired. I'm guessing the calling official regrets blowing the whistle on that one. There was contact, but bailing out a team that missed a lay-up by calling a foul on a loose ball rebound scramble with under one second to go in a tie game is not an ideal way to decide the game. Even Pat Summitt seemed dissatisifed with the way the game ended.

The question I always ask is: would I have called the same thing at any other point in the game? I am sure the calling official probably has asked that several times since the end of the game. I believe that consistency from beginning to end is the primary measure of a well called game.

That being said, from the television angle, it looked like both players were going for the ball and I would not have called a foul on this one. I have watched a lot of game film taken from different angles and I am always amazed at how different the play looks depending on the angle. The calling official obviously saw a foul from the angle he was calling from.

But does the whistle stop the clock, or does the impact? What if the whistle was delayed on the play and came after the horn? Shoot FT's, or OT?

I was thinking that the Tennessee player was displaced to the point that the call should have been made first half or second half.

I don't see the officials bailing anyone out here. Tennesse missed the layup, however, Bayler threw the ball away after running down the clock and not getting a shot. The players decided the game.

Thanks, Stan

Does anyone know what official made this call? I couldn't tell by any of the replays if the lead made the call or if it came from the center or trail. If this call was made in the 1st 1/2 does anyone say a word about it?

This type of call was made in the first half, because I watched this game from start to finish. I know what official made the call, but I am not going to put the name of the official on this forum out of respect to that official.

It is sad to that a great game had to come down to a foul call at the end, but it was a foul and there was no "grey" area about it. The Baylor girl clearly gained a big advantage by bumping the Tennessee player when she got back in the play from being out of bounds.

I thought the game was well officiated from beginning to end the whole way through.

actaully
 

I thought is was poorly officiated and very inconsistant

Then, no disrespect intended with what I am about to say, but you did not watch to same game that I watched.

Re: actaully
 

Why? What did they miss? Where weren't they being consistent?

Just wondering how you formed your opinion.

That was the main purpose of my response to the comment Jurassic Referee? State it was a poorly officiated game, but don't provide the evidence to back up one's own opinion.

bodies flying all over the place on rebounding situations all game and no calls and then the final non-call, call. Very inconsistant and yes I did watch it all the way through.

Well, I still don't think you saw the same game because there was not a lot of what you just described displayed in this game other then foul call at the end, which was a good call by the official.

Well, I didn't see the game, so I can't really comment on the officiating. Gotta say though "bodies flying all over the place on rebounding situations" is not really a reason to declare the officiating as being that bad. Every single contact situation is different and each has to be judged on it's own merits. Do you know what official made that final call? And can you give examples of where that call was inconsistent with previous calls/no-calls made by the same official? Or are you saying that all 3 officials were consistently wrong on contact calls the entire game?

I am not going to get into a call by call replay. As I watched it I was saying to myself that this is very inconsistant and then when the final call was made I was in disbelief. I think calls like that make the entire officiatng community look bad. I will defend officials by all means, because it is a difficult job, but if cannot criticise a poor job then we continue the assumption that we stick up for our own no matter what they do.

There is nothing wrong with making the tough call in a critical situation. Lat night was not one of them.

I couldn't agree with you more! Too often you hear that if it is close, let the players decide the outcome. So what does that mean? Swallow your whistle? I disagree with that. It is a foul/violation with 12 minutes to go before halftime, it is a foul/violation with .03 seconds left in the game.

Think of it like this. Lets hypothetically see it as an offensive violation i.e. travel. Now lets say that the official decides that "ahh the game is close and time is about to run out so I'll pass on that, it won't hurt anyone." Just as he finishes thinking that, the shot falls through the net for 2 points and the win. Looks like he got himself in a bind with the 'let the players decide the game' mentality. Granted this is hypothetical but it still proves a point that fouls and violations need to be called regardless of the time and score of the game.

Someone PLEASE provide input on whether the impact of the collision is grounds for stopping the clock. If the time of the whistle being blown is indetermineable (who blew it...trail? center? lead?), are you allowded to go to the monitor and put the clock back at the time the impact occurred.

Yes, because it was an end of game situation. The referees can go to the monitor and (1) check and see if the foul occurred before the expiration of time and (2) replace time on the clock at the moment the foul occurred. There is no lag time principle in NCAA rules so although the whistle may be a split second slower, time would be replaced at the moment of the foul.

ESPN lead-in
 

The refs decide the game with a shocking call.

Gimme a break. If this call happens any other time in the game it goes totally unnoticed. I personally thought it was a good call, the Tennesse player about to gain control when the Baylor player enters the picture and hammers her. Questionable call? Aren't they all? Shocking? Certainly not. If the foul is not called and Tennessee loses in overtime would the Tennessee people have complained about this play? You better believe it.

ESPN is right
 

ESPN is right. A bad call is a bad call.

ESPN is wrong. The call that was made needed to be made, because of how obvious the foul was, and because that call had gotten made so many times through out the course of the game.

As officials we are taught, if it is a foul at the .2 mark of the first half, then that exact same call is a foul at the .2 mark of the second half. The thing coaches want and these coaches received last night was a good consistent game called by the officials, and that is what these coaches got.

ESPN was wrong, as they have been in the past. But, then the media is always paid to be wrong when it comes to officiating.

diagree
 

disagree, terrible call

caref, are you just acting this way for the sake of argument or are you 8 years old? You have stated that you think it was a bad call (which is wasn't), but that is all that you seem to say.

DO you think that this would not be a call that you would have made with 15:00 left in the 1st half or do you think the the official should have just swallowed his whistle to allow the game go to OT?

I can see if your point, but not agree, if you think that he should have swallowed his whistle but this was definetly a foul. I recorded the game (and I am not a fan of either team) so I could break it down from a referees point of view and I have watched the replay 20+ times. The Baylor player clearly came from OOB and slammed into the Tenn player causing her to fall down.

IMO it was a foul no question but the timing just happend to be bad. I am glad that it was called

I've been poking around in the rule book on this one...dead ball occurs when a foul occurs. But the clock doesn't stop until an official signals to stop it. And the monitor can indeed be used to rectify a timing mistake. I just wonder how many supervisors will endorse the official's decision, and how many don't because that's who really matters in this case--good whistle or should it have been a no call?

common sense
 

to be it was a common sense no call. Actually I am at work and cannot take too much time to write a long reply.

Re: ESPN is right
 

A bad call is a bad call. A bad call is not shocking. It happens too often to be shocking. Shocking is a word used to draw attention. ESPN needs attention to stay in business, they have a job to do just as we do. In my opinion, the use of the word shocking to describe this play is shocking.

Well, I gave you the benefit of the doubt up until that one.

Bye-bye, credibility.

Carry on and have fun, fanboy.

why do we as officials go so defensive?
 

It's not Watergate. I will go out on a limb and say that someone is telling that officials today that he probably should ahve held his whistle. Heck, he was probably sayng the saem hing last night in the locker room. It was an ugly end to a great game. We can go round and round about making hat call with 15 minutes to go or in the first half, but when have you ever seen such a call in such a big game. A few bodies banging over a loose ball as time expires happens all the time. If I make that call and I hear the buzzer as I am sounding my whistle I waive it off and we go overtime. That game deserved overtime for everything that is great about the game. If it is a foul that changes the complexion of the play call it. If the players was foulded on the layup that she missed call it, but not the call that was made.

Advantage/disadvantage.

I will stick by my guns and say it was the wrong call at the wrong time and ruined what was otherwise a great game. I normally don't watch the woman much, but I was glued to my TV set and then to have that happen was awful.

By the wasy I didn't care who won as I said I don't watch the woman much, but

I still have no clue after watching so many replays what official actually made the call. Lead, trail or was it from across the court from the center? The C may have had the open look on this play. All of the replays that I have seen have none of the officials in the picture so I am unsure what possition actually made the call.I agree that the call was obvious enough to be made in the 1st 1/2..... So why not now?

caraf...... May I ask what your refereeing background is? I am not doubting you...... Just curious.

The call was made by the lead official. The player from Baylor that was called for the foul, was next to him OOB and the went running for the rebound and hit the Tenn player.

I agree with one very important point the clock stops when the official raises his or her arm and blows the whistle. Not when the contact appears to have occured in the video. They should be listening to hear if the whistle came before the horn.

Advantage/disadvantage??????

The Tennesee player was knocked to the ground when she was in position to get the rebound and had time to shoot quickly? I say thats Advantage/disadvantage.

I will agre with the person that said that the player came from out of bounds but do you know 100% that it was the lead that made the call as from every single replay that I have seen... none of the officials were in the picture of the replay.

I know 100% that the call came from the lead

Re: why do we as officials go so defensive?
 

Please don't say "we,as officials...". That is a very inaccurate statement. it's OK to say "it is my opinion...", but don't try to intimate that any other official might agree with you. You're speaking for yourself only. Hell, we're not even sure that you <b>are</b> an official. You sure sound like one of the many fanboys that have been infesting this forum lately.

If you are an official, which I'm starting to doubt, again please back up your original statements about the game being poorly and inconsistently officiated by giving <b>your</b> reasons for making those statements. Just saying that it is "your opinion" doesn't cut it here. Anybody can come here and dump on the officials without giving any real reasons why the officials were supposed to be bad.

Re: why do we as officials go so defensive?
 

The better question is why are fans so stupid. We asked you to come up with some reasoning, and all you can say is "it was just bad." Well if you were in college and writing a research paper on this topic, you would have to coorberate your information. All JR has asked is for you to back up your point of view. Most of us are officials, we know what happens in games on a regular basis. We know the rules and know what are not rules, like "over the back" which most of the public actually thinks is a foul.

For the record, I did not see the game either. I only saw the replay of the final seconds and I understand the rule in place because I have done some college ball. Not during a media game, but I to have some working knowledge of those "media game" rules where replay is present. And the officials handled it correct. ESPN cannot even get when the foul was called correct. They still have been telling the public that they called the foul by looking at the video tape. We just want you to back some of your information up. If you cannot do that, you just prove to us why the general public is stupid when it comes to these issues.

Peace

Smoref, You said you know 100 % that the lead made the call.
The replay tonight showed that the lead on that play was also the lead administering the last 2 free throws. I know that there was a long delay after the foul and then the time out; but do you then think he switched spots to get away from the coaches? If that is the case why didn't he go to the C ? Just a question.

Re: why do we as officials go so defensive?
 

So which one is it?

Forget the question of whether or not it's a foul. Assume the contact is clearly a foul.

If you have a foul clearly before the buzzer, but wave it off because the score is tied, you are putting the fouled team at a HUGE disadvantage, you are giving all refs a bad name, and you need to get some chutzpah.

yes and I do officiate
 

I am an official at teh high school varsity level, work the playoffs, do roughly 80 to 90 games a high school season and several hundred others the rest of the year to work on my skills. I ahve also coaches and guess what? I am a fan of the game too. I didn't like what I saw last night. It left a bad taste in my mouth as it did many others.


Does anyone on this board ever pass on something because it had no effect on the game?

We do it all the time or else games would be foul shooting contests instead of basketball games.

Now what if no call had been made?

Would anyone have been upset?

I doubt it. The game would have gone into overtime and the best team last night would have won.

Did the contact cause Tennessee a chance to win the game with a shot. With :02 second and the ball in the air after the tip by the Baylor player?

I don't believe so. Again my opinion based on waht I saw.

I agree that you can disagree.

The best call sometimes is no call at all and I will stick by that philosphy. It has done me well so far. There is a saying "let the players decide the game in the waning seconds. I certainly agree with that.

It really seems to be that way in the mens game. Close game, clock ticking down, physical play and no whistles.

The call last night did not need to be made. It was and since we have video replay to check the officials had to do what they did, but I bet they didn't like it either.

Why are fans so stupid?
 

Because we see the tv commentators as the 'voice of authority'. Many of us are up in arms about this whole thing because apparently Reese Davis, Nell Fortner and Stacey Dales-Schuman went on a rant after the game and said that it simply was NOT a foul and should never have been called in the first place. According to them it was just 'incidental contact' occurring during a scramble after a loose ball, and they were demanding to let the players decide the outcome.

Well, I was at the game, and it sure looked like a foul to me. And as soon as I saw the crew chief heading for the table I thought to myself, 'Oh crap, I bet he's going to have to put some time back on the clock.' I didn't hear what the tv folks were saying so I didn't go berserk. Sure, it was a lousy way for a game to end. But sometimes games have lousy endings. I was disappointed too because I was rooting for Baylor to pull off the Upset of the Century. But when a player charges into her opponent like that, well, that's a no-no and I really don't think it matters when it happens. I'm sure that the Baylor player didn't intend to do it, but that's beside the point. Most of the fans around me were of the same opinion, that it was just a rotten piece of luck. In our minds, the players had decided the outcome of the game. Baylor had lots of chances to win but they let Tennessee get back into the game.

But we were not listening to the 'experts' in the ESPN studio. Would we have believed them if we had heard their comments? Who knows? Maybe, maybe not.

In any case, that's one of the primary reasons that we are so stupid.

Yup, that says it all right there. Another fanboy. Tell me, fanboy, if you really are a referee, why won't you answer a few simple questions? Again, you made the statement that the officiating in the game was poor and inconsistent. Using your vast expertise and experience as an official, could you now give us the specific examples that will back up your claim. Simply tell us which calls they screwed up and why they screwed them up, and also which calls that they made that weren't consistent with other calls that they made. Please enlighten us.

I just checked the tape and he was not the one who administered the last free throw. And when the ball went OOB with 31 secs on the clock they didn't switch either. So I am not sure when you are talking about or maybe I don't fully understand.

Advantage/disadvantage?

The foul was called with .2 left, and the Tennessee player nowhere near a shooting motion. By study, it takes over .3 to release a shot. How was the Tennessee player disadvantaged when she couldn't possibly have scored a field goal anyway?

When the whistle sounds has absolutely nothing to do with when the foul occurs.

If the foul occurred before the horn sounded, then it's a foul, no matter when the whistle blew, and the FTs must be shot.

The only thing the whistle will determine is if time is put back on the clock.

But the calling offical didn't know how much time was left...
 

I had a similar thing happen to a crew I was on. As an Official, we all knew that the clock was about out. The offense throws up a shot and misses. There is a scramble and the offensive player gets control and is about to put the ball back up. A defensive players rushes directly into him(her) to stop the attempt. FOUL.

The ref doesn't know that there is not enough time to get the second shot off. Only that the ball is live. It is only after the whistle that we see that there is only .3 seconds left.

Tough call to make and live through, but the right call.

Re: But the calling offical didn't know how much time was left...
 

.3 is totally insignificant in this situation. What about this call made it tough to live through?

I just checked the tape and he was not the one who administered the last free throw. And when the ball went OOB with 31 secs on the clock they didn't switch either. So I am not sure when you are talking about or maybe I don't fully understand.

My bad Smoref. I thought it was and still think it is the same official and I have seen it a few times again. But I have been wrong before.

It seems there is alot of focus on the .3 seconds left in the game issue that has me wondering if some people have the wrong interpretation of the rule. I know many of you know the rule, but I just think are misapplying it in this case. If you stop the clock and there are .3 or less, we all know that you cannot count any FG try, but you can a tap. However this is only when the ball is dead. You cannot at any time assume that a shot could not have been attempted (try or tap) if the ball is live/clock is running. Example: Live ball/clock running. If A1 were pass to A2 and A2 made the catch with .2 seconds on the clock, no matter how improbable if A2 shoots prior to the horn sounding (in the officials judgement) the shot is good. Even if you go to the replay (which would likely happen at the college level) and A2 caught the ball with .000003 seconds and shot it prior to the horn (assuming the clock is running/live ball & you have a clock that reads that far out) you have to count it. So based on the fact that the clock was running when the foul occured, btw I do think it was a great call, you have to assume the possibility of getting a shot off is there. So for everybody that is saying she couldn't have even got a shot off based on the .3 second rule, your argument is flawed. As for "letting the players decide the game", they did the Tennessee player got in great position to rebound a missed shot and the Baylor player got into a great position to commit a foul. If there had been enough time for Baylor to get another possesion, nobody would be complaining. It would have just been up to Baylor to go down and score.

It was a foul
 

From the replay, it looks like the Baylor player ran from out-of-bounds right into Tenn player, knocking her down. How is this incidental contact that doesn't confer an advantage?

I think if there is displacement there is a foul, no matter how much time is on the clock. Wasn't this one of the points of emphasis last year?

For those who think this is a lousy way to end a game, the players should listen to their coaches, who are shouting "don't foul", "don't foul" the whole time, and the crowd, who is counting down the seconds. There was no reason for the Baylor player to be running after the loose ball like that with so little time on the clock and Tennessee in the bonus.

Let the players decide the game? They did. One player committed a foul, and the other player made the free throws.

Please tell me exactly how the official was supposed to know that there was only .2 left.

Is this a foul at the 15 minute mark? Yes.

Then it's a foul with .2 left.

In layman's terms, when someone knocks the crap out of you, you are put at a disadvantage, kinda like in boxing.

Maybe if he sucks on his whistle just a bit... and sees the "whole play"... he doesn't call that foul.

Although I think it was not a patient whistle... it was in fact a foul.. cuz the tenn player could have made a play from there... and the baylor player didn't give that opportunity.

As for the referee, who has the overall power to view the replay. He or she (I don't know who it was). COULD have made a real veteran-like decision and put the game into overtime. NOT BECAUSE the call was wrong (cuz it was right). BUT, because the overall circumstances of the situation... would tell a veteran that you can say the foul happened at .2 but, the whistle happened "after" the horn. Overtime.. no argument likely from Summit or the Baylor coach.

RIGHT ?

Remember.. the Baylor coach wanted over the back on the initial play.. which was probably there too.

Overtime best choice i thought.. call was right though.

I disagree with the justification in comparing that foul occurring at .2 is the same as if it happened at the 15 minute mark. I saw a play in last night's Uconn game that the Huskies were clearly dominating. A Penn State player committed an obvious charge, but it wasn't called because the team was getting whipped as it was. No need to call that charge...good no call. They were already skewered...don't break the stick off! When the ball is loose as in the Baylor game, players should be allowed to go for the ball--and as an official, you need to recognize that. Sure the foul was called, but I feel if whoever called that foul could have delayed and watched the play finish developing, the foul wouldn't have been called--at least before time expired. Plus...recognize that Baylor JUST threw the ball away, and Tennessee JUST blew and open layup and stay patient on the whistle unless there is a train wreck. This wasn't a train wreck.

Well, then somebody please define "train wreck" for me, because I have not a clue anymore(being sarcastic here) because of all the officiating dictionaries we have imputting on this topic.

I agree with Jurassic Referee's comments all the way through this post, and also the jurisdiction comments as well about if it is a foul at the 15 minute mark, it is a foul at the .2 second mark.

A foul is a foul, plain and simple. If you choose to call it or not to call it, you are telling the coaches and players you saw the whole play and you can offer an explanation for you making call or not making a call.

So, you admit that the call was correct but you say that it shouldn't have been made. That makes no sense whatsoever.

"Yes Coach Summitt, that was a foul but we've decided we're going to ignore that it happened and just play OT." Then you're going to eject her because she's going to make Rick Barnes look like a choir boy. :(


That has nothing to do with the point I was making. If the contact is a situation you would call as a foul with 15 minutes remaining, then it should be a foul in the last 10 seconds as well.

[Edited by BktBallRef on Apr 8th, 2004 at 08:22 PM]

BktBallRef...

Missed my point by just a little bit.

I'm saying that.. it WAS a foul. HOWEVER, the foul does not stop the game.. the whistle does. Therefore, YES, it was a foul. but, NO, it did not have to be penalized cuz the whistle occurred after the "offical" end of regulation. In other words... the Crew Chief in the situation had some leeway.. in that likely the video would not show whent the actual whistle happened.

I just thought of this though.

Are they not using the precision timing system ? If so, the whistle should stop the clock at the "EXACT" instant that the whistle is blown. Therefore, the clock had to have expired.. cuz the whistle would have stopped it.. before the horn and time had run off.

Isn't this EXACT situation.. what the precision timing system is there for ?? Whistle foul and time.. near end of game situations.

I may be wrong.. but, i don't think i am correct. Someone set me straight if I am not. And please don't make stuff up. SMILE and a wink.

You know Bball ref...I just hopped on this board yesterday for the first time because I thought it would stimulate the officiating side of my brain during the off season. But it's clear that your banter has no room for discourse, and is why officials are labeled with gargantuan size ego. Forget the Baylor play...if you are "eternally" grateful to not have to referee with someone that MAY make a mistake, or set aside a rule somewhere, or God forbid disagree with you...then that sure limits the possibilities of your crewmates.
Lighten up.

ok who let Yogi Berra into the discussion?? ;)...whether you agree with the call or not, I think going to the replay and playing the ole "well we will just say it occured after the whistle" game is a can of worms that will do no one any good at all...the replay shows quite obviously the contact occured before the time expired, therefore they free throws need to be shot.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by johnSandlin
I know what official made the call, but I am not going to put the name of the official on this forum out of respect to that official.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Why doesn't Teddy Valentine get the same respect?


Last night on the Late ESPN sports center the said the officlas name.

In what context did they say his name?

Also.. boy this play is making me think.

It is taught... and I assume practiced by many of the big time officials. TO see the whole play.. let it develop.. and see the end of it.

From an officiating mechanics standpoint.. shouldn't the call have come after the clock expired. Cuz he would have seen the whole play through.. and the whistle would have come after the clock ??

IF we are putting time back on clock... because the foul happened "at that instant" then I contend that we should do that the ENTIRE game. BECAUSE.. as has been so stated throughout this thread.. a foul is the same at the 10 minute mark as it is at .2. IF SO.. then why are we putting time back on the clock for THIS particuliar foul ?????????

I'm not saying this literally.. just an idea to think about when you talk about treating situations similiarly throughout the game. They did NOT treat it similiarly.

I do think it was a very very tough play... and possibly a quick whistle resulted in a suspect result. Officiating is all "Grey area" in my opinion. It is not black and white. We are talking instantaneous decisions, with tenth's of seconds. Of course it was tough.. I guess that is how you determine who officiates the REAL BIG GAMES. How you handle these situations of the course of a career.

to Jurrasic (sic)
 

Examples...examples...examples..Too bad I did not tape the game. I'd go through it and look for speific examples.

By the way I will ahve a little ore respect for you and not call you names....
oh the heck with it,, lets jsut call you the rule book guy and leave it at that

imaref,
Assume you have a shooting player who gets fouled with, let's say, .2 sec left. You blow your whistle virtually simultaneously with the horn. You check the replay to see how much time is on the clock, not whether or not the foul happened before the horn. If contact came before the end of the game, shoot the shots. You can't just ignore the foul because it was so close to the end of the game.

Last night on the Late ESPN sports center the said the officlas name.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


In what context did they say his name?

They said his name and that he was the lead offical who made the call. They said that he would not comment to ESPN and that he declined an interview with them.

Snaqwell..

I think you have to be creative in situations like this. I'm not saying IGNORE the foul.

I'm saying.. yes it was a foul.. BUT, NOT a very clear foul.. and one that if not called.. would not be argued. GREY area REMEMBER. Loose ball foul.. with no possession.. sure she bumped her a little.. but, it was not a "must have call" by any means.

I'm saying.. be creative as the Crew Chief.

As you look at the play.. to determine the time.. kinda take a peek at the contact as you do it. If there is no evidence about when the whistle was blown.. then you do not HAVE to administer the penalty.

OVERTIME

just my opinion..

there is an elastic clause for ref's in the rule book... maybe doesn't apply hear.. but, can be used when needed.

I didn't see the play Sunday, but watched it several times yesterday. I first thought that it clearly was not a push (or over the back as some would have it!) on the first rebound. The second rebound would certainly be a foul at any other point in the game. That said, if the whistle had been a little slower (i.e., the ref had a chance to see that it was foul-horn, bang-bang), it is a foul call that could be "passed" on. The foul did not impact the game because no shot would have been released. I think that is why people struggle with the call. However, in no way do I think the ref was making the call to bail out a big time program. And I don't have a horse in this race. If aything, I would like to see new teams move forward in the womens ranks rather than the same old Tenn and Uconn.

Once the whistle was blown, no chance to change the call - it had to be done like it was. In NF, without replay rules, I am betting that many would say they had whistle after horn and go to overtime.

So are you saying that if the foul had happened 2/10 of a second sooner, it is allowed to be called? That the bonus comes into play for only the first 19:59:58 of each half, and not all 20 minutes of each half?

imaref,
It doesn't matter when the whistle blew. If the contact was before the horn, and you whistled it, you have to stick with it. Even if the whistle blows after the horn, you have to go with it, from the way I understand NCAA rules. The timing rules in the NCAA are different from NFHS, in that there is no lag time accounted for, and they seem to set the clock at the point of the infraction rather than the whistle.
Look, I can understand people questioning the call. That's fair game, but I'm amused at how people can say it was a horrible call, and that it cost Baylor the game, and that it would not have been made by a mature official. Those charges are just ludicrous.
I haven't seen the play, and frankly don't care who won (not because it's women, but because it was Tennessee and Baylor) beyond an agreement with HawksCoach that I'd like to see some new teams make it for a change.

I had a play once like this in a jr. high game. Team A ties the game with just a few seconds left. Team B pushes the ball up the court frantically hoping to get off a shot.
B1 catches a pass 25 feet from the basket and is flattened
by A1. There is a whistle and the clock stops on 0:00 and we hear just a hint of buzzer. B1 is given 2 free throws,
(2 to make 1) makes the first and the game is over. A's coach threw a screaming fit..........at A1: "WHY WERE YOU EVEN CLOSE TO HIM??!!"

This call was made by a mature official. It was a great call. The only bad thing about it was the timing of the call if you are a Baylor fan.

I would take this guy as a partner any day of the week as he proved that he had the guts to make the call. A foul is a foul no matter how much time is left or no matter what the score is.

I hope that he is rewarded for his great work

[Edited by BOBBYMO on Mar 30th, 2004 at 01:40 PM]

The Tennessee coach was quoted on ESPN today as follows- <i>"If such a foul occurs in the first 3 minutes of the game, do you call it? Yes!"</i>.

Just thought I'd throw that in. :D

Re: to caref
 

Gee, why aren't I surprised that you refuse to answer the question?

Maybe next time that you want to crap on officials <b>to</b> officials, you might think a little bit before you do so. Kinda tough when you don't really have the knowledge or experience to back up your slurs, isn't it? Constructive criticism is fine. Destructive criticism, well, we expect that from fans, and not referees. If you are a referee.

Yes, you can also call me "rule book guy" if you want. I'll call you "lack of rulebook knowledge/backstabber guy". Sound fair?

Re: to Jurrasic (sic)
 

I did record the game and if you want a copy of the tape send me a self adreessed stamped video tape envelope along w/a blank tape and I will record it for you.

If you realy want it post your e-mail addr and I will send you my mailing address.

Re: Re: to Jurrasic (sic)
 

I did record the game and if you want a copy of the tape send me a self adreessed stamped video tape envelope along w/a blank tape and I will record it for you.

Do you have the capablities of posting that play on the internet or have you seen it posted somewhere else.

OK, the game was called by Bob Trammell, Chuck Gonzalez, and Mary Day. We all no that a Ref named Mary wouldn't have the balls to make this call, so which one was it, Bob or Chuck?

[/B][/QUOTE]Maybe you'd like to add a smiley to that one. Some of our distaff officials might just take it seriously. Just to name a couple, I'd don't think that I'd like to say anything like this to officials like Rainmaker, or Oatmeal Queen, or other ladies that post on here. I might end up as being the one with no balls. And deservedly so, for questioning their courage.

You were just kidding, wern't you?

ESPN is still showing that particular game-ending play in their sportscasts, I think. They did have it on video on the website. You might still be able to find it in their archives.

Re: Re: Re: to Jurrasic (sic)
 

No I don't the ability to download it and I have not seen it on the net anywhere

or those of you who don't think it should have been called, what about with .6 seconds left? Clearly there would have been time for that player to catch the ball, collect herself, and release a shot. I demonstrate to my players how much time a second is so they learn not to rush a shot when time is running low.

If you would buy that .6 seconds would be sufficient time to have a shot, then you should clearly call the obvious foul on an offensive rebounder with 0.6 left. And no ref is going to know the difference between .2 and .6 when they blow the whistle. Once blown, the rulebook tells them to go to the monitor to confirm timing at the end of a game. The monitor shows foul before time ran out. The rule says it is now a foul. The refs have no options regarding this.

It might have been nice had the whistle not blown, because we could have seen an overtime rather than FTs being shot on what appears to have been an insignifcant foul. But it is incredibly harsh to criticize the official for blowing the whistle merely because the clock was running down. The official couldn't have know the time down to the last 1/10th of a second and had every right to blow the whistle. And once the whistle was blown, the rulebook had to be followed. There was no other option at that point.

I thought so. You really don't want rainmaker and OMQ to track you down. Makes me shudder to think of it. Are you familiar with the medical procedure known as an "orchidectomy"? Picture that, but performed with a butter knife. :eek:

Actually, they're not using PT.

Credibility down 3/8 of a point . . . . .

They actually do do this quite often. With college timers, though, it's rare for there to be a full second discrepancy between the whistle and the clock stopping, and you can only see whole seconds until the last minute.

As to why it matters more with 0.2 left on the clock in a tied regional semi-final game . . . figure that one out yourself.

You're right, Dino. I've got no balls (at least not by some definitions), but onions I've got plenty of!

BushRef doesn't need to worry. I've got better things to do than "orchidize" someone for questioning my courage. I need to go hunt down a mastodon so my kids can have dinner this evening!

[Edited by rainmaker on Mar 30th, 2004 at 04:21 PM]

nothing could be more wrong because only the official calling the foul know where in the film that the foul occured. I was taught that the most important thing is blow the whistle hard and raise my arm that stops the clock Because if I go by when I think is the foul occured then time expired by almost a full second (overtime).

[Edited by aucella on Mar 31st, 2004 at 04:53 AM]

I do not understand any official who can justify supporting the call at the end of the baylor game. That foul if indeed it was a foul, (no one was knocked to the floor and the teen player was moving towards the ball also)should have never been called. You should always call fouls disavange advantage gained, and in this case the so called fouling player did not gain an advantage because the rebound was meaningless. I never call a foul at the end of a game unless it affects a scoring play or gives someone an advantage that puts them in position to score. If you want to be picky then the Tenn player fouled the baylor on the tip off the missed layup, she came over the back and made some contact. This play defenitely could have been deemed to be an advantage gained. It was passed on but the play at the end was not. Extrememly inconsistent. they also misapplied the monitor rule. the ncca should be ashamed they were not using precision timing also. I always take up for officials sionc ei have been doing this for 24 yearsbut this game was not well officiated. There were many missed calls, the pricinple of vertically was missed twice when they called fouls on Tenn post players, Dionne Brown took a shot and the ball never made it halfway to the basket and it was not blocked, thus a late whistle with a foul should have happened. I could on and on missed block charge and soem blocks that were clean that were called fouls. I would not want referee with this crew. Most referee's I know have too big of an ego to admit to a mistake and this is being clearly bourne out by the reaction of the ncaa. Guys this was the worst call in the history of womens college basketball.

You mean other than NOT playing in high heels and fishnet stockings! :D

Juulie, you're not the only one who can have all the fun!

Seriously, you mean to tell me this call, which was made in a split second, was the WORST EVER?!? How about a few years ago, when they let the injured player come out and score a uncontested basket then leave the floor? Uh oh, I just opened another can o' worms... ;)

The worst? I think you're the best
 

Judge
That may not have been the worst call in women's basketball history, but if you keep typing, we may award you the most ridiculous hyperbole ever used on this board. And you would have beaten out some strong contenders, so you should be very proud!

So no fouls unless someone goes to ground? I'd hate to see your games. Even worse - I'd hate to see your courtroom.



And how do you know this? Ball could still be tipped in with this time on the clock.




Three seconds left in a game, defense plows into a legal screen, knocks the kid to the floor, and it's contact worthy of a foul. Do you not call that? What if the last second shot misses, and the team that was fouled lost by one, when they were in the double bonus?



How so, oh wise one? I hate to think of how you made it through law school.



I tend to agree on this, but college level timers are pretty damn good. Also, you can still go to the monitor to see if the contact was before the horn.



Take up? Is that like taking in their slacks? If you meant stand up for, you're not doing such a great job on this forum.



Let me get a tissue - I'm about to cry over the poor officiating.




And what was the last date and time of your last perfect game? Send us a tape - please.



Twice!

TWICE!!!!

(a) Reference my above comment.
(b) I live in Washington, D.C. I'll head on up to Capitol Hill tomorrow and demand hearings on this issue!

Re: The worst? I think you're the best
 

Hmmmm..this gets me thinking...maybe we need to institute a FOS award...like in The Judge FOS Award. As you say there are a number of good folks we can name it for and I'm certainly not saying this judge guy is the most FOS poster of the year.

Any name suggestions? And of course nominations for the first award!

BTW, maybe THE least good call in woman's history happened at Tenessee vs UCLA (as I recall) in a NCAA qtr finals game (I think qtr finals) 4 or 5 yrs ag.

Remember it?

Just a guess, but I think the feeling is probably mutual.

Typical response from most officials, too big of an ego to admit mistakes. This call was a huge mistake, and if you do not understand why, you need to get in touch with some refs who have to the big time and ask why.
I can give you an example of a play that never gets called at the end of a game becuase it is not affecting the play. Oone second left and team a has an inbounds at opposite end of floor and needs a basket to tie or win. It is a throw in after a made basket so they can run the baseline.they set up in one corner and run towards the other end, all the while a screen is set inbounds where the person guarding the throw in player will run over them as they move with the passer. I have seen this trick used many times in big mens tournamnets game, and guess what, even if the payler flats runs over the screener nothing is ever called. Some refs understand the sprit of the rules is the important thing not the technical side. the ref in the Baylor game had every right to call this foul per the rules as they are written, but he never should have.There is no way tenn player had time 10 ft from the basket with her back towards it, to tip it in. It was scramble for a loose ball and you could even make a case for the foul should not have been called period even with 5 mins left.
One other point did anybody see if the bu player had established herself inbounds before she touches the ball? That would have made a difference in the call.
We have all made erros and the official in this case and the ncaa should admit one. We are far from perfect.

Dexter

You said..

"As to why it matters more with 0.2 left on the clock in a tied regional semi-final game . . . figure that one out yourself."

Are you sayin that it is treated "differently" based on the situation ?? Seems that you may be.

BTW.. I read your posts.. and you make some nice points. Just question this one.

And why on earth are they not using precision time ?? I don't watch women's college too much.. just curious.

Is the post above by Judge an April Fools joke? Seriously?

Or just something posted from an April fool?

So, if you're saying fouls should be called based only on location, direction and ability to make a basket. No chance = no foul. WHAT?

I will admit that I've seen similar situations where there was no call. And I've seen calls made. This call didn't bother me.

He made his "worst call ever in women's college basketball" statement on Mar. 30; so I don't think it's an April Fool joke. (Although that would be pretty funny).

My guess is by being a new poster, Judge probably lost a few skins in Vegas on this game.

PT is not used in the men or women's torunament.

You know.. I was thinking that maybe Precision Time wasn't being used... cuz I noticed a lot of the guys.. chopping the clock from the stop-clock position... with hand nowhere near the timing device. I guess I was assuming that maybe they had pregamed that a non-administering official would start the timing device.

Anyhow...

Anyone know why they don't use Precision Time in the tournament ??? If in fact they don't.

They have been having trouble with the equipment at the Lloyd Noble Center for a long time. The clock stops when the whistle is blown (they finally got that one fixed), but they have never been able to use the belt packs to start the clock with any reliability. So they're just chopping in, and it seems to be a much better solution. I'm surprised that the NCAA would let us host a regional unless all the equipment was working properly. (But maybe the NCAA didn't know?) And I don't know enough about the equipment to understand why they couldn't get the technical problems fixed before the tourney. Or before the start of the regular season, for that matter.

THE BIG EAST vs acc
 

Its ACC vs the Big East on Saturday and North Carolina is nowhere to be found. http://www.click-smilies.de/sammlung...smiley-105.gif