NC State Intentional foul

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by 35thPony
He was chasing back to get into the play when the other player stopped and intentionally drew contact with Melvin. Melvin made no attempt at the ball because he was not attempting to foul.

[/B]

Well, that pretty much says it all right there about your rules knowledge. The player in front can legally stop any time that he feels like it. Any contact resulting on the play is charged to the player behind, by rule. Also, the definitions of an intentional foul include the proviso that there is no attempt at the ball by the defender.

You failed the test, fanboy. Piss off!

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by 35thPony
He did not commit an intentional foul because he did not attempt to foul. Think about the situation that NC State was in when this foul was called... Just think about it... He was chasing back to get into the play when the other player stopped and intentionally drew contact with Melvin. State was leading with little time left... Any moron would know he was not attempting to foul. Melvin made no attempt at the ball because he was not attempting to foul. It was incidental contact all the way so by definition it wasn't intentional.

Sorry fanboy, but a player does not have to be attempting to foul to commit an intetnional foul.

[35thPony]

Intentional by defenition has the route word intent.... Meaning he needs intent to commit and intentional act... I am a police officer and the word intent has strong meanings. If you do not have to have intent to commit and INTENTional foul, the rule if flawed. I never said it wasn't a foul... just not intentional.

[Adam]

Originally posted by 35thPony
Intentional by defenition has the route word intent.... Meaning he needs intent to commit and intentional act... I am a police officer and the word intent has strong meanings. If you do not have to have intent to commit and INTENTional foul, the rule if flawed. I never said it wasn't a foul... just not intentional.

Take it up with the rules committee. The "intent" requirement is not there to allow for calls on overly physical fouls. Example, player B1 goes for the ball, but with abandon, and plows over A1 trying to shoot a layup. Intentional foul.
We're not talking about a court of law here. Intent is not the only criterian we have, otherwise we'd be calling intentional fouls the entire last 2 minutes of a 10 point game.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by 35thPony e
Intentional by defenition has the route word intent.... Meaning he needs intent to commit and intentional act... I am a police officer and the word intent has strong meanings. If you do not have to have intent to commit and INTENTional foul, the rule if flawed. I never said it wasn't a foul... just not intentional.

The term "INTENTional" Foul has nothing to do with intent. And we do not go be definitions in the rules of basketball the same way it is in a dictionary. I did not see the play, but what was described, if true fit a good call.

Peace

[Bart Tyson]

Originally posted by 35thPony
Intentional by defenition has the route word intent.... Meaning he needs intent to commit and intentional act... I am a police officer and the word intent has strong meanings. If you do not have to have intent to commit and INTENTional foul, the rule if flawed. I never said it wasn't a foul... just not intentional.

Well fanboy, bad man attempts to open a window without breaking it, oops, darn, the window broke. Oh well, I'll just go on in. I didn't break and enter. Now, that shows my ignorance of the law. The more you describe your knowledge of the rules, the more you show your ignorance or the rules. Intentional Foul is a NAME of types of fouls. Has little to do with Intent. BTW, as an officer of the law, you have my support.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by 35thPony
I am a police officer and the word intent has strong meanings.

A police officer, eh? Where do you work? I know next to nothing about the laws and the various statutes, but that doesn't matter. I still want to go watch you at work so I can boo you, second-guess you, tell you what a terrible cop you are, tell you that you really don't know the various laws or how to apply them, tell you that you can't arrest someone because I think that that particular law is wrong anyway, etc.,etc.,etc. Get the idea?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by 35thPony
Intentional by defenition has the route word intent.... Meaning he needs intent to commit and intentional act...

Okay, buddy - read the rulebook and then get back to us.

NEXT!

[35thPony]

Maybe then it should be called a Physical foul... I figured the rules committee would be smart enough to name something by words that descibe it. It's like me saying I am arresting you for Assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill.... and then telling someone I know they didn't attempt to kill him, but that is what we will call it.

Jurasic, I get boo'd all the time, you don't have to ride with me. I have a bad day and I don't come home... you have a bad day and you get boo'd. You guys do have a hard job, but some of you are very good, and some of you are not... Just like my profession.

BTW, I really wish you guys were paid more... The ACC officiating is at the bottom of NCAA officiating... I mean the best confrence in football and basketball for next year (quite possible) may have the worst officials. I hope you guys get a raise so you can do it full time and not have to have any other jobs.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by 35thPony
Maybe then it should be called a Physical foul... I figured the rules committee would be smart enough to name something by words that descibe it. It's like me saying I am arresting you for Assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill.... and then telling someone I know they didn't attempt to kill him, but that is what we will call it.

Well it is not. So get over it and stop trying to put your spin one what it should be called and accept that intent has nothing to do with the actual definition of the foul.

Originally posted by 35thPony
Jurasic, I get boo'd all the time, you don't have to ride with me. I have a bad day and I don't come home... you have a bad day and you get boo'd. You guys do have a hard job, but some of you are very good, and some of you are not... Just like my profession.

You decided to be a cop. We decided to be officials. And being an official for most is not a job, it is a hobby at best. Most of us do something else outside of officiating. The point that JR makes is that you do not have many people while your are doing your job, telling you suck and questioning absolutely every decision you make. Of course their are people that are not fond of cops, I am one of them. But if I acted the same way towards a cop as you are towards us, I might be in jail.

Originally posted by 35thPony
BTW, I really wish you guys were paid more... The ACC officiating is at the bottom of NCAA officiating... I mean the best confrence in football and basketball for next year (quite possible) may have the worst officials. I hope you guys get a raise so you can do it full time and not have to have any other jobs.

So they can make less money than they do now? Not sure I would want that.

Peace

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by 35thPony
I figured the rules committee would be smart enough to name something by words that descibe it. It's like me saying I am arresting you for Assault with a deadly weapon with intent to kill.... and then telling someone I know they didn't attempt to kill him, but that is what we will call it.

Lah, me! You are completely missing my point. When you're out on the streets, do you arrest people according to written laws and statutes? Or do you make up your own laws, and then use them to arrest people? The point is that YOU are making up YOUR own basketball rules, and YOU are then amazed that trained and experienced NCAA officials aren't following YOUR rules. You don't have even the tiniest clue as to what the purpose and intent of the rule regarding intentional fouls is, but you're telling us that the people who wrote the damn rule are wrong, the experienced officials who applied the rule are also wrong, but you are right. That might not be the dumbest thing that a fan has written on this forum, but it's certainly in the top 10.

Btw, your comment on ACC officials tells me exactly what we're dealing with here too. What credentials do you possess, other than a La-Z-Boy, a 6-pack and a tv set, that will allow you to expertly evaluate, grade and rank all of NCAA basketball officials in the country? That comment made the top 10 too, fanboy.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Apr 1st, 2004 at 07:34 AM]

[Bart Tyson]

Sorry fanboy, I have to agree with Jurassic Referee. You have no knowledge of what makes a good/bad referee. Almost all NCAA officials are very good or they wouldn't be there. When you start making judgement calls/no calls ever few seconds, for 40 mins. And you are perfect on every call, every night/day you work, then and only then will I stop calling you fanboy.

[35thPony]

Actually, I have reasonable knowledge of officiating and have many friends that do officiate. ACC officiating has gone straight down hill in the last decade. I watch games that I have no interest in and i see numerous errors.... many more so than other leagues. Officials are often out of position, the wrong official is making a call, the officiating doesn't remain consistant throughout the game.

I was agreeing with you that you have to enforce the rules, but Melvin's contact was incidental and therefore should not have been called an intentional. But it's over...

Btw, I make split second calls everyday I am at work, so I know how hard they can be... I really do respect what you do, it is not easy at all. You guys have a lot of pressure put on you everyday. Most of you are very good at what you do to, I was just making a comment on this particular call and the state of ACC officiating.


And why don't you like cops... That is such BS.... You must have gotten a speeding ticket you didn't deserve, yeah right. The only people who dislike cops are criminals... 90-95% of the people who say they were wronged by the police are liars, and I feel bad for the other 5-10%. I do everything in my power to make sure that I never do that. I work narcotics, both uniformed, plain clothes, and undercover. I see the worst of the world... If police officers weren't around, I would hate to see what you block would look like. Yet, you aren't fond of cops, what a joke. How about we all just take a day off of work and see how much more you'll like us then.

[Edited by 35thPony on Apr 1st, 2004 at 01:31 PM]

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by 35thPony
And why don't you like cops...

It's got absolutely nothing to do with liking cops. That's completely irrelevant. I could give a damn less whether you were a priest or the president either. It's got everything to do with us NOT liking the fact that misinformed, clueless fanboys like yourself are trying to judge dedicated officials that have put in many, many years trying to perfect their thankless avocation. You don't have a clue what the rules are, what mechanics we use, how we are evaluated,etc.,etc., etc. We're just a convenient excuse for people like you to use when your team loses, or doesn't cover the spread. I'm not qualified to judge how well you do your job as a cop. I'll admit that. You are not qualified to judge how well officials are doing their jobs. You refuse to admit that. I have absolutely no respect for people like you that do nothing but sit on their fat butts and criticize officials. If we're so bad, get off your a$$ and do something about it. Take up officiating, and show us all how it's done. Then come back here when you know what you're talking about!

[ocreferee]

Originally posted by 35thPony
Actually, I have reasonable knowledge of officiating and have many friends that do officiate. ACC officiating has gone straight down hill in the last decade. (snip)

Then, in your opinion, the officiating in every conference has gone down hill over the last decade since most (if not all) ACC officials work in multiple conferences!